I have observed two distinct types of training focus and eye contact from the post on the board. One method trains the dog to focus on the prey object/ball while the other method demands eye contact at all times. Both are successful and both have their positives and negatives.

The first method is the prefered method of Flinks and many trainers on this board. Eye contact is then taught as almost a seperate command.

The later method has been discussed in great detail in this thread. Pay especial attention to Lee Baragona's post. It is a shame that she has stopped posting on the board.

http://www.leerburg.com/ubbthreads/showflat.php?Cat=0&Board=22&Number=84170&page=2&fpart=all

Basically you demand eye contact with any command for the dog to get the reward. I tried this with my puppy and the results were amazing. She will stare at me no matter where I have the treat. I reagards to drive work, once the dog has been amped up and then sat, the focus will immediately go to the handlers eyes.

So my question is, which method do people prefer and why? What are the pitfalls and landmines that you should look out for? Which ones produces better results? What are the theorys behind each one? I am fully aware that much of this depends on the dog and the ability of the trainer, but lets all talk in hypotheticals. This is in the COMPETITION OBEDIENCE forum so please keep that in mind. My hope is that this thread with produce lots of ideas and heathly conversation so that the masses can be educated, so have at it.

Our club trains more in the manner talked about by Lee. This is also more in the line of Ivan Balabanov's tapes. With the Flinks method, the dog is taught to focus on the ball/kong/toy. With Ivan's tape, the dog focuses on you. In the flinks tapes, you can see the dog follow the toy when it's moved back and fourth. I prefer the dog looks into my eyes when I move the ball. He knows that eye contact with me, will get the ball.
The better trainers here can probably explain the differences better than me. Both work well.

Here's my take on it after observing and discussing both these different training goals with multiple handlers with a lot of experience between all of us:

I think that the eye contact method makes for sharper obedience. But I see that a dog focusing on you while instead of the helper during transport is a flaw and tends to end up an unwanted by-product of this method. And it costs you points in your protection routine.

The dogs trained via the toy method seem to be more aware of their surrounding and can react quicker to changes in it, which is helpful during protection work and it's associated obedience.

And let's not forget that Flinks' dog, Itor, is a police dog. It seems logical that a police dog handler would not want his dog to let its attention wander from an apprehended suspect and therefore benefit more from the "toy style" training... just a thought <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/crazy.gif" alt="" />

Will, I agree with your thoughts on the transport. However, our dogs soon learn to watch the helper during this part of the exercise. Again, the correct behaviour from the dog, gets a bite. When training the transport, it doesn't take much to refocus on the helper. A little poke with the slag stick does wonders for refocusing. Many random bites from the helper will also keep the dog from to much handler focus. In actual training, most of the dogs have automatically refocused on the helper when they are this close. Initially, there is a lot of back and forth eye movement (from the dog) from helper to handler, and this is where the random bites/reward comes into play. Compaired to you and many here on this forum, I'm a total newby to bite work, both viewing and training, but I've seen excellent results with some really good dogs at our club.

I've never had issues with the dog's focus in protection when training eye contact in obedience.

Maybe you haven't at the level that you compete at, but Ivan got points dinged due to this very thing in protection several times.

Wouldn't handler sensitivity come into play here? I would think that a dog that is more independent would not be as likely to focus on the handler rather than the decoy during the transport.

I have an 8 month old Mal out of a bitch that Ivan produced who is far more handler sensitive than my older Mal. I have limited experience in Shutzhund but from what I've seen, the older dog will have no problems focusing on the decoy during the transport while the pup is going to want to "keep an eye on me" during this exercise when I teach it.

Natalie
http://alikamalinois.tripod.com
http://eklypsevanarek.tripod.com

Quote:but Ivan got points dinged due to this very thing in protection several times.

Yet still tends to win. Something to think about with Schutzhund.

However in ring, this is not necessary, because you are not there babysitting your dog.

VIVA LA REVOLUTION! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/tongue.gif" alt="" />

I don't have the knowledge to dissagree but I still think it all comes down to how the dog is trained/rewarded. Only Ivan can explain why he looses points for to much eye contact from his dog. maybe he doesn't practice what he teaches all the time <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/shocked.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />. We have a top named trainer in the St. Louis area that has put out a nice motivational heeling tape, yet anyone that has come from that club tells us that it just doesn't happen that way over there. IMHO, motivational work takes a little more time. Many of the professionals want to turn out dogs in a hurry and don't spend the time to do motivational the way it deserves. I did the yank and crank for years and still have no problem making corrections when the dog understands, but up to this point, it hasn't been necessary. As I said in another post, some will say this is because of a lack of drive in our dogs because a really high drive dog wont stay under control, without compulsion, when it comes to bite work. I can only say that I see it all the time at our club.