Ok… first I apologize for the length of this post but I truly appreciate any input you may have about the situation.

I've just come back from a walk with my dogs and a short dog fight between my GSD and a miniature breed of some sort (Bichon Frise maybe?). The fight started and stopped within 2 seconds and luckily, it seems nobody was hurt. I'm wondering what the legal reality of the situation is. I know most of you aren't lawyers, but opinions would be nice. I'm going to try to describe the situation as accurately as possible, but I also understand this is a "one sided" case as I was the only real witness to the "fight".

Ok… I take my dogs for a walk on a regular basis up to a common area in our neighborhood. It's about 5-10 acres of mostly cleared land next to a small pond. Lots of people walk their dogs in the area. I have 3 dogs that are all 90% trained off leash and from my experience, 100% trained with their e-collars on. So as long as the park is empty (which it usually is) I allow my dogs to run off leash near the back of the park so that I have plenty of time to see approaching people/dogs and leash my dogs as soon as anyone else is in the area. Near the entrance to the park there are several houses with fenced back yards facing the park/pond, one of which has a large gate that is left open with a wire "baby gate" type thing there to keep their little dogs inside. There are two small white dogs that always bark and go nuts when they see me and my dogs so I keep my distance. My dogs have never been within 20 feet of that little fence or those two dogs. I have one dog that likes to chase small dogs (not sure if he sees them as toys or actual prey) and one that doesn't understand that she's 45 pounds and tends to play too rough with smaller animals although she has always had a playful nature around smaller animals.

Ok, so today, I get there, and let my dogs off leash. At this point, I'm about 150 feet from their fence (still near the entrance to the park). I usually let them off leash around there as we make our way back towards the back of the park. I tossed a tennis ball and realized that one of my dogs was still behind me. I turned around to see my GSD being bull rushed by this little white dog. Go figure. The little white dog must have gotten within 15 feet of him before my GSD moved. I think my GSD was peeing and didn't see him coming. He ran up grabbed the dog and whipped him around once before I could get the word out of my mouth, but he instantly released the little thing on command. I was saying "no" and turning the dial up on my remote at the same time but never even pressed the button because he released as soon as I said no and came running back to me (as I was running to get him).

The other dog started it. The other dog was "at large". The owner of the other dog was clearly negligent in leaving his fence wide open. My dogs have never shown ANY aggression towards his dogs though his dogs always bark furiously at my dogs (even from over 100 yards away). I am sure any normal person would know that the other owner/dog was at least partially at fault. But I'm wondering what my responsibility is? One might say my dogs were "at large" but besides having their e-collars on (which work very well), they were all under voice command. When told, they all went into a down position although one was too excited and made me repeat myself once. If I had my dogs on a long line or one of those flimsy flexi leads, it's arguable that the situation would not have been any different. Maybe I'm in the wrong. But regardless of who is at fault, I really wish people with small dogs were held to the same standards as people with larger dogs. Just because your dog is an ankle biter doesn't mean it's ok to let them act like little psychos.

Part of me feels bad, because the little dog could have been hurt, but is it my fault that he got hurt when he ran up to me and my dogs with his owner nowhere to be found? His owner came running outside and appologized for his dogs behavior (as did I). Who is at fault here? Any input or comments you have would be greatly appreciated.

Seems to me both dogs were (at large ) I think you would be in trouble if your dog had killed or injured the other.

I feel there is a double standard when it comes to smaller vs. larger.

Unfortunately E-collars are not looked at as having your dog under control in most public places. Sometimes regulations will say under physical control & with that wording would be referring to a leash.

I feel I have had significant experience with big/small dog fights. I live with a 100lb GSD, a 6 1/2lb chihuahua, and a 11 lb pekingese. All males. The little dogs ALWAYS start the fights. I don't know if you're more concerned about who's at fault or the fact that your dog was aggressive, but I've had a few similar incidents at my house. In my experience, the picking up is a warning. A very sincere warning, but a warning nonetheless. With you at the distance you mentioned, I don't think your dog would've dropped little Fluffy, if he was truly being aggressive. My GSD has picked up my chi a few times, with NO harm done, except to his pride. I kind of think of it like Ed's "taking their feet off the ground" correction. Your dog was correcting the ankle biter in the only way he knew how. Unless he's trained to use an ecollar by himself... <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />. I may be way off base, and if so, I'm sure I'll hear about it promptly. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> That little dog lucked out this time, but next time he may not. Unfortunately, no matter who's "at fault" if your dog did serious harm to a small dog, you're in for, at the very least, a big hassle. Your dog will take 100% of the blame on size alone, unfair as it may be. I'd even take my dog somewhere else if they won't restrain them properly.

My girlfriend spoke to a sheriff deputy about e-collars not too long ago and it seemed that he was suggesting that a dog with an e-collar on is not "at large" but his words weren't explicit. Seemed like he was using a little logic and mixing with a less than thorough understanding of the letter of the law or relevant case law on the subject of e-collars.

As for the damage done, the little dog wasn't bleeding visibly, and ran back to his owner without any noticeable signs of injury.

Jenni's suggestion that my dog was warning the other dog does seem to fit the situation, although it's hard for me to believe he had that kind of self-control. The dog was about the size of one of our cats. My GSD is about 85 pounds. I can't imagine he would have bit down and NOT hurt the little guy. I was shocked that he released so quickly. He is OB trained and knew the command I gave, but you expect a dog in that situation to be a little hard headed. Maybe he WAS just warning him. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" />

Believe me your dog did not want to hurt that small dog, if he did it would have been dead in about 2 seconds

I couldn't believe MY dog's self-control when he picked up the chihuahua. Caleb (GSD) was eating some ground beef that my mom had given him, when Widget (chi) decided to eat some, too. Caleb allowed him to eat simultaneously, but Widget got obnoxious, climbing IN the bowl and then biting Caleb's lips and under his chin. Caleb did not appreciate this, roared, picked him up and stood there calmly, no hackles raised, and growled for a few seconds. Then he dropped him a few feet away and went back to eating. All this happened in seconds, but I was quite impressed with Caleb's response. It was about time he stuck up for himself, but his control was unbelievable. He has more patience than I! Before everyone wonders why the hell they were offered food together in the first place, let me clarify that I had Widget upstairs with me,didn't know Caleb was eating, and let Widget downstairs. I don't allow Widget to pick on him, play with his toys, or be in the room while he eats. I don't know how long he'll WARN him for before he TEACHES him.

Unless your jurisdiction is like no other jurisdiction I have heard of, a dog with an e-collar would still be in violation of any leash law.

However, it sounds like both dogs are in violation of the law in this situation. As was mentioned above, small dogs often get the short end of the stick when it comes to winning dog fights. Due to this, unfortunately, even if the little dog is being a sh*t, the big dog gets in trouble.

Are you worried about charges in this situation or is this a hypothetical question as to if it happened again in the future? Every jurisdiction is different but I would not be stressing *too* much in my jursidiction if this happened. The worst case (criminal) scenario, in my jurisdiction, is that you could get a vicious dog ticket as well as both of you getting dog-at-large tickets. The reason you would get a vicious dog ticket and not the little punt dog getting one is again due to the size issue. Unfair but that is how the game is played in most places <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/mad.gif" alt="" />

If it was me, I would avoid that part of the park in the future if you are going to have your dogs off leash.

That's just it Ingrid. I'm wondering what would happen if the situation were worse than it was. And I don't believe the Deputy knew what he was talking about in regards to the law and e-collars.

And from now on, I will just make sure I get farther away from potential problems before I let them off leash. In all reality, the "fight" wouldn't have been any different if my dog were on leash, but from a legal standpoint, I may have been less "at fault" if my dogs were leashed and just defending themselves two feet from their owner's side.

It depends upon the jurisdiction, and it depends upon the law.

Generally speaking, if the law forbids dogs being "at large", a dog that is under control and in your presence is not at large.

In my city, the law forbids dogs being off leash.

There's no point in discussing what is legal or not legal without specifics as to the jurisdiction and the laws in force there.

As for the "attack", there was no attack. Dogs communicate limits with body language, growls, and snaps.

The little Bichon was clearly violating the other dog's personal space, and was told - in the language that dogs have used since there were dogs - to back off.

If dogs are fighting, there's going to be blood in the first couple of seconds. If there isn't blood, it's just dogs setting boundaries.

Some years back I had a very large male Doberman, and then my daughter asked me to take her 20 pound female mut to live with me, as she was moving out of state.
This stupid little dog kept picking fights with the Dobie even bit him so hard on the front legs she made him bleed. He was a good 100 pound dog. He would grab her by the head or neck and hold her to the ground. She would yell and screem and finally lay quite and he would let her up. But with in a few hours she be right back at him. I figure he was going to lose he calm control and finally kill her. She was found a new home the next day.
Some little dogs are just plain stupid. At least this one was.
If he had killed her he would have been labled a dog killer, even though it was the small dog that really was the one that would have kill had she been able.