Quote: jennifer ruzsa

I'm sure this is true, but the main reason I don't comment on it is because I've never fed my dogs a low-quality food (like Pedigree) to compare. So I personally haven't seen the drastic long-term benefits of raw that someone who for instance might have been feeding Pedigree for years, seen the effects, then switched to raw....

I admit that I have not fed kibble and switched, either, but that's because I've had all "pre-owned" dogs (mostly rescues). So I have seen truly sharp changes in health in chronically-unwell dogs switched to real food.

I did feed canned way back when. Then I got a couple of books. First Pitcairn, then Billinghurst and Lonsdale....... I am in their debt forever.

Fine, so when it comes to feeding my adult dogs, I give them whole fish, chicken necks/backs, ground roast, (butcher told me she wouldn't eat commercial hamburger, only ground roast) and ground turkey. I haven't given eggs yet but I will. Since I do a lot of juicing I always have leftover pulp to give to my dogs with their meat. It just helps me feel better about not wasting all those good veggies and fruits. I also bought a bunch of chicken gizzards the other day and ground them up in my food processor. (my dogs don't seem to like beef gizzards, not sure how they will take to chicken ones, so I ground them up) When I don't feed fish I add one gel cap of salmon oil per meal.

The puppy on the other hand....scared me half to death the other day when he hardly pooped. I thought that he might have eaten something that was clogging him. I ended up taking him and the other dogs out for a walk together and then exercising him alot. As soon as we got home he relieved me with the biggest poo yet! Then again this morning, just a little bit of squirt. I also gave him fish with the other dogs. I am thinking that switching him like I do the dogs might not be something he is ready yet. I think I will stick to the ground roast and ground turkey for him, for a little while until he get used to it a little more. Any other suggestions?

You could try adding some digestive enzymes to help him in the transition. This really helped my APBT who had been on several courses of antibiotics. I used yogurt too, but the huge improvement came with the enzymes.

 Quote: RobbinMann

I think I will stick to the ground roast and ground turkey for him, for a little while until he get used to it a little more. Any other suggestions?

I'm not clear (sorry) as to whether this is ground-with-bones or not.

If not, I wouldn't feed a dog an all-muscle-meat diet, and even more would I not feed it to a pup.

But maybe you meant with bones...... ?

This is the whole calcium-phosphorous thing: bones and meat.

I'm sorry if I am misinterpretating.

 Quote: RobbinMann

Fine, so when it comes to feeding my adult dogs, I give them whole fish, chicken necks/backs, ground roast, (butcher told me she wouldn't eat commercial hamburger, only ground roast) and ground turkey. I haven't given eggs yet but I will. Since I do a lot of juicing I always have leftover pulp to give to my dogs with their meat. It just helps me feel better about not wasting all those good veggies and fruits. I also bought a bunch of chicken gizzards the other day and ground them up in my food processor. (my dogs don't seem to like beef gizzards, not sure how they will take to chicken ones, so I ground them up) When I don't feed fish I add one gel cap of salmon oil per meal.

Nothing you're doing is hurting your dogs. You're doing everything safely. Just know the following:

* No, NOT chicken backs/necks... WHOLE CHICKEN (or at least supplement the chicken backs/necks with chicken meat, though this is more expensive and more complicated. The necks/backs without additional supplementation of MEAT are too high in bone, proportionally. Remember, a whole chicken, in addition to it's back and neck, has wings, breast, and legs.

* The ground roast and ground turkey are probably more expensive to add than if you just bought a whole darn chicken. There's also no need for cooking (and I am presuming the turkey and roast are cooked?)

* Not sure why you are grinding the organ meat? Dogs can eat a whole gizzard, unground. There's no reason to grind it. Heck, they'll eat whole liver and kidney too! Is there a reason you seem to be so given to grinding? Maybe you like doing dishes? I'm just teasing you, but it is just so funny to me how complicated you seem to want to make this for yourself. I feel bad to think you're doing dishes that you don't have to be (and meat grinders aren't fun to clean)!

* You can put the veggie pulp in the food, that's fine. Won't harm the dogs. Just know they aren't using much of it, and if you'd rather pick it up on a walk and put it in the garbage than put it right into the garbage before it goes through doggy intestine, that's fine too. Dogs don't have the necessary enzymes to get the value out of produce like we do. Do they get some? Sure, probably especially since you're talking PULP here... Do they need it? Nope.

As for adjustment, an acidophilus capsule thrown on his meat (which should be a nice unground chunk of chicken, or a whole fish ) should be all that's needed.

 Quote: jennifer ruzsa

.... Nothing you're doing is hurting your dogs. You're doing everything safely. Just know the following:

* No, NOT chicken backs/necks... WHOLE CHICKEN (or at least supplement the chicken backs/necks with chicken meat, though this is more expensive and more complicated. The necks/backs without additional supplementation of MEAT are too high in bone, proportionally. Remember, a whole chicken, in addition to it's back and neck, has wings, breast, and legs.

* The ground roast and ground turkey are probably more expensive to add than if you just bought a whole darn chicken. There's also no need for cooking (and I am presuming the turkey and roast are cooked?)

* Not sure why you are grinding the organ meat? Dogs can eat a whole gizzard, unground. There's no reason to grind it. Heck, they'll eat whole liver and kidney too! Is there a reason you seem to be so given to grinding? Maybe you like doing dishes? I'm just teasing you, but it is just so funny to me how complicated you seem to want to make this for yourself. I feel bad to think you're doing dishes that you don't have to be (and meat grinders aren't fun to clean)!

* You can put the veggie pulp in the food, that's fine. Won't harm the dogs. Just know they aren't using much of it, and if you'd rather pick it up on a walk and put it in the garbage than put it right into the garbage before it goes through doggy intestine, that's fine too. Dogs don't have the necessary enzymes to get the value out of produce like we do. Do they get some? Sure, probably especially since you're talking PULP here... Do they need it? Nope.

As for adjustment, an acidophilus capsule thrown on his meat (which should be a nice unground chunk of chicken, or a whole fish ) should be all that's needed.

Well, about backs and necks. Aside from the fact that the O.P. said she was feeding "chicken necks/backs, ground roast, and ground turkey," not just backs and necks, I want to weigh in here with my opinion of backs and necks.

I think they're both great (with, as we have all said, added muscle meat) for beginners or for a dog or pup just starting on RMBs, because they're so soft (not to mention cheap!). "No, NOT chicken backs/necks" isn't something I'd say. JMO. I always keep them in the freezer.

I also probably wouldn't exactly say that "Dogs don't have the necessary enzymes to get the value out of produce like we do. Do they get some? Sure, probably especially since you're talking PULP here... Do they need it? Nope."

There are three threads going on simultaneously talking about produce, but in a nutshell: Some researchers have concluded that dogs can't get much use from produce with sturdy cell walls and that they can't break down the cellulose.

I agree.

However, as noted on other threads, UC's study on Yellowstone wolves watched with spotter's scopes and videos I watched in class indicate that wild canids eat young tender greens, fallen ripe fruits and berries, and the contents of the stomach of *some* (not all) large prey and just about all small prey. In other words, on their own, they do eat some produce.

My own route is to omit the sturdy produce like broccoli and feed tender greens (with occasional fruit and occasional well-processed medium-cellulose greens). This part is opinion only.

My gut reaction to feeding pulp from which the juice has been extracted is that it seems to be the part the dog can't digest. Again, opinion.

P.S. I too have dogs who will leave liver, etc., for days, and I too have the butcher throw it into the grinder when he grinds weight-bearing bones. Again, opinion.

I'm NOT trying to quarrel. This is just a slightly different opinion. I understand that we can all read the same material and draw slightly different conclusions, and I see it every time I go to class. Canine nutrition classes are full of students and instructors who have slightly different "takes" on material.

yes, digestive enzymes are a good idea, and probiotics. I give both to all of my dogs, and horses. Keeps a healthy gut healthy. I recommend Pro-zyme and Fastrack (probios) - I mix some together and give a little bit (1/4 tsp or so) once/day in the food.

molly

okay, well I feed necks/backs on some days, fish on others, ground roast and ground turkey on others. No they are not cooked. It wouldn't make any sense to feed raw chicken and then turn around and feed cooked hamburgers and turkey. I don't think I am ready to feed my dogs a whole turkey or a whole cow as yet, thus, the grinding. As far as grinding the gizzards...my dogs don't like them at all and since everyone says they are so important I can grind them down and then mix them into the other ground meat without my dogs noticing too much. My dogs love veggies and fruits...not sure why but they do. I usually coat the veggies with the salmon oil maybe this is why they like them so much. Each day is different so they aren't getting backs/necks all the time. I'd thought that I was giving a good variety to my dogs. Since I am supposed to feed them twice a day in order to avoid bloat I can't fathom giving them a whole chicken twice a day. My male lab already has weight issues starting at 2 years old. Anyhow. just wanted to clarify for you them means behind my madness.

You're doing great, IMHO.

Well, except........ what? No whole cows?