Just know im not arguing with you just debating.

Can you show me where he says to use the DD collar in a training situtaion other than Dominance/aggression?

I have been both blessed and cursed with one of those rare ultra dominant, handler aggressive dogs. If it wouldn’t be totally unfair to my dog, I’d take him outside and trigger an aggressive response so it could be video taped for viewing.

Unless you have one of these dogs or have truly “seen it all” you will never truly understand what types of dogs are being discussed. You can’t train this out of the dog… if it were possible to do, you are talking about triggering the absolute worse response in the world in an animal and then attempting to correct it with leash corrections that most likely triggered the response in the first place.

You have to deal with it when it happens and make the event so memorable for the dog that he truly believes that he was struck down by the hand of God (yours) and is lucky to be alive.

I did a hotel drug search with my dog once where he alerted inside a purse. I tossed the purse to another officer and asked him to search it. As soon as the officer stuck his hand inside the purse my dog got aggressive towards the officer… my belief was that my dog thought the officer was going to take his drug reward toy from out of the purse (dog thinks its in there).

The unwarranted aggression earned about three level 8.5 leash corrections from me. At this point he started growling at me. This aggression towards me got the whole level 10 correction! This triggered a fight of flight response with a dog that has no flight. He clamped down on my hand and wasn’t letting go.

We had it out in the hotel room…. And I will tell you that Ed’s suggestion on dealing with this works. I have not had a repeat since. I do understand what triggers it and how to avoid it.

Sometimes being “the Alpha” just doesn’t get the job done, especially if you own one of “those dogs”.

i was about to say - when he's talking about training (http://www.leerburg.com/746.htm) it's behavioural training (i.e. not attacking handler), not obedience training.

i've been confused how you mean it benjamin - i assumed you are saying you're against it for use in obedience training, which absolutely no one is advocating, which has been leading to my confusing.

so....are you saying that you're against setting up a dog to teach it that aggression to a handler is a bad idea?
(b/c to me, ed is talking that the person to do this is: a)experienced enough to do it (i.e. i wouldn't try) and/or has an experienced handler coaching them; and b)is the primary handler of the handler-aggressive dog.)

How many times do I have to defend myself. Matt this is the exact situation in which I could see a DD collar being completely appropriate. What I find inappropriate would be if you were to call your fellow officer to meet you and then reenact the situation in order to give you a chance to correct the dog again. This is the training situation I'm speaking about.

If you read the leerburg article posted on page 9 of this convo you'll see how Ed uses it. I find this to be wildly inappropriate, dangerous and once again leaves a few ifs.

Too many ifs to me Jennifer. I read somewhere that there was a well known trainer who didn't consider a behavior (sit) fluent until he had done it 20 times, in 20 different place, with 20 different distractions per. Thats a lot of training. If you can never truly trust the dog around its trigger after three days of training then whats the point? I'm not gonna spend a year of choking out a dog every day while trying generalize the correction.

Why do you feel the need to defend yourself????

I don't see any post here that has come off as being any way insulting or degrading to anything you've said.

i assumed this was a debate of ideas and in no way shape or form have i seen anyone saying you need to change your way of thinking.
just like anything you have said isn't going to change mine.
You have your way I have mine.

What post has you feeling you need to defend yourself?

 Quote: benjamin colbert

Once again I'm fine with the idea of a DD collar as an "e-brake". I've worked with dogs and in kennels, I remeber kneeing the hell out of a dog one time that was biting (punturing flesh ) another dog and I had already gotten been once trying to break it up. It worked and the dog let go.

Here is a case that a DD collar would be used in, I would say that "kneeing the hell out of a dog" is much more violent (potential broken ribs, bruising, continued biting), and also likely not to work all the time (I'm just guessing, but I would say it would be hard to knee the hell out of a high drive handler aggressive dog that is attached to you with his teeth). I think you are discounting an effective tool (the DD collar) based purely on emotion and are instead using your own tools (kneeing the hell out of a dog) that you are happy with but which are not necessarily reliable.

 Quote: benjamin colbert

I'm not fine with it as a training collar. Ever. I'm with Steve. There are far too many ifs here. What if Ed trains my dog with a DD collar. After a few days it never makes another aggressive motion toward Ed. How do I know that the dog has generalized that all aggressive dominant behavior to all humans is wrong? How do I know that he doesn't think he can get away with it with my girlfriend? or that he can guard or bite when its food and not a toy, or when I'm not around, or when Ed's not around?

You have just set up a straw man and knocked it down. We can also apply your favorite training methods to the above scenario with the same results.
I think you just like to be contentious and controlling, but in a subtle sort of way. You keep arguing that it shouldn't be used as an everyday training tool. Nobody has said otherwise. Several people have said it is for extreme cases and emergencies. What is wrong with that? Please give your reasons.

 Quote: benjamin colbert

How do I know that the dog has generalized that all aggressive dominant behavior to all humans is wrong? How do I know that he doesn't think he can get away with it with my girlfriend? or that he can guard or bite when its food and not a toy, or when I'm not around, or when Ed's not around?

Well this has already been said, but I think it wouldn't hurt to be repeated. Aggression does not always equal dominance.

Saying a dog is aggressive does not mean that he is dominant. There are many things that can cause aggression, and for some of those things, the aggression can (with good conditioning and training) be "fixed."

True dominance is a fundamental part of the dog's personality. A dog that is VERY dominant...a dog that truly thinks he needs to be alpha above all others and will fight anyone and anything to establish that rank...is rare.

But, as Wendy said, that dog will be dominant regardless of what collar you use. And while you may be able to establish your dominace over him and get him to respect YOU, that doesn't mean that the dog would ever be 100% safe around people who don't know how to handle a dominant dog when you (or Ed ) aren't around.

EDITED: Sheesh, we all just said the same thing at the same time!

 Quote: Benjamin Colbert

Too many ifs to me Jennifer. I read somewhere that there was a well known trainer who didn't consider a behavior (sit) fluent until he had done it 20 times, in 20 different place, with 20 different distractions per. Thats a lot of training. If you can never truly trust the dog around its trigger after three days of training then whats the point? I'm not gonna spend a year of choking out a dog every day while trying generalize the correction.

okay....i'm getting confused with all the posts!

for me - i like having it as a back up. it gives me an added tool and helps w/safety, since teagan does trigger up on prong corrections sometimes (my fault, but i know i'll make mistakes on occasion).
she's a pet, and while she's plenty for me to handle, i bet lots of the experienced people on here would be far better at handling her from the get-go. but even just watching her and the dominance she does exhibit, makes me appreciate that in dogs that are more dominant, more hard - and handler aggressive - i might want to set the dog up. i think it would be a pretty rare occurence, but i can see with some dogs why it might be necessary. (taking my opinion for what it's worth )

edit: when i say 'i' might want to set the dog up, i mean that in the royal we sense....if you know what i mean. i need lunch....

 Quote: Benjamin Colbert

How many times do I have to defend myself. Matt this is the exact situation in which I could see a DD collar being completely appropriate. What I find inappropriate would be if you were to call your fellow officer to meet you and then reenact the situation in order to give you a chance to correct the dog again. This is the training situation I'm speaking about.

You would rather leave it to chance rather than set it up in a controlled environment where you can limit the chances of anyone (including the dog) getting hurt? No thank you.