'It is a fact as of now that both sides need each other to progress'. end quote.

Excuse me!
Since when does the working lines need the high lines?
This whole discusion has been about how little or nothing the high lines bring to the table.
Why water down a good worker?

Sorry James, read the thread.
Randy

Hi Enrique
I think you can place a showline pup in the hands of an experience trainer and get way more out of that pup then handing it to a green handler. Having said that , I think we have some good showlines out there but the problem is that a lot of showline breeders don't know how to pick a dog for someone that wants to work 'em. All they see is beauty and what they think is best to those breeders are the looks, not the temperament/drives. I have a pup(SL) in my group class that I teach that is scared of her own shadow, the breeder where this dog came from said to this new owner that that is how pups behave ,etc.. I see that in so many showline pups that come to me it's SOOO dissapointing. Then I hear stories about buyers that cant pet the parents of the pups they want to purchase! Those breeders should really go into another type of Hobby or work, if that's what pays their mortgage...... I had a showline that was great, had the amount of drives that took him to a Club trial Schutz 3. and not given to him either , but I think we have to look at the hanlers that own these showlines,the ones that want to do Schutzhund but don't know what it takes to even start the Sport and with a Showline on hands, that can be a recipe for failure. The difference with a working line in the hands of a greenie , a working line has the drives, the focus and temperament to get there with a green handler because he has the ability to recover from mistakes then in the showlines. IMO

Angelique, as always your opinion is appreciated and respected.

To James, you say dogs will evolve, of course they will. Evolution means progress and moving forward, you can not have that when you breed superior dogs to lesser dogs. That's not evoltion, that's going backwards. You can't take a step forward and two backwards IMHO.

Hey Angelique, long time no speak Your PM inbox is full.

There are plenty of mediocre/boring workingline dogs that have nothing to add the breed, same with the showdogs but in a even higher degree. At least the workinglines haven´t that ugly structure that todays showlines has, but it seems roached backs are found also in some workingdogs, javir vom talka marda for example.

Agreed Stig, but it is not so much that the show line German GSD is or is not ugly, as that opinion is a subjective one, it is that because of that conformation they are less useable and not as sound orthopedically e.g., spine and hips.

True, and that is also my opinion, besides the fact that I think they look ugly compared to the more straight-backed normal structured GSDs.

Angelique wrote in part:
The difference with a working line in the hands of a greenie , a working line has the drives, the focus and temperament to get there with a green handler because he has the ability to recover from mistakes then in the showlines.

Couldn't agree more and those same differences also hold true for experienced handlers and why working line dogs are chosen, as all dogs on the path to function must first be able to withstand the rigors of training before than can be assessed for that work and or breeding.

hahahahha, good to know you have deemed schutzhund to be meaningless, Jennifer. I'll let everyone know so they can stop wasting their time! I notice this remark is generally made by those who have never titled in the first place.

Norman from your response to me:
And again please understand that I am a devoted lover of the WL GSD and do not much care for the SL GSD.
Please read below

{{{Steve wrote in part:
My only answer to that (and I am not her) is that she is a SL breeder, but, places high value in the working dog's ability and sees that there is a problem in the working ability of SL dogs

Well so do we all but how she chooses to solve that problem baffles me as the answer to that problem is already there, and it is breed only working line GSD’s. I mean no disrespect but what exactly do show line dogs bring to the breeding equation. Working temperament and character? No. Working conformation? No. A useable work ethic? No. ***( I have to disagree with you here. An SL dog that is out of one of the most famous von Arlett dogs was a highly valued SAR dog in Switzerland, also Sch3-287. He was brought here to the states to be used as a stud dog. He is VA now. In total this dog has been shown no more than 4 or 5 times in Europe and U.S. combined. Actually only once in U.S. He is an SL that has all of the above characteristics you speak of.)*** So given that why would someone who wants to improve the breed choose blood lines, that are replete with the traits and behaviors that working breeders are aggressively breeding away from. Maybe a particular show line dog is OK but what about the many behind that particular dog, don’t they count?

Steve wrote in part:
How many of the WL GSD owners on here bought their dog because of the way it looks?

Too many ***(Yes way too many that probably shouldn't own a WL GSD because they, as I pointed out earlier, are watering down the WL GSD, as well!)**** but people shouldn’t buy working dogs like they buy art. That is look in a book and pick one that looks a certain way or believes because of the BS written about them they will act a certain way. I would think that far more pick show line dogs because of looks because that is why they are valued. ***(Your logic is slightly flawed here. The general public, on the whole, does not know that WL dogs exist and would not even know to look for one. Most of the general public only knows that Black and Tan dogs exist.)****

Steve wrote in part:
Of all the dogs produced how many are actually, truly, a "working dog"? I do not mean dogs competing in sports

If your speaking about GSD’s I would think you might be a bit low, IMO about three per-cent of the total of American and German but that percentage is misleading as I don’t consider the American style GSD a GSD.***(Sorry I disagree with you about the percentage. I think that my numbers are much closer even if you remove the American GSD from the equation.)*** That said the actual GSD today is by far the most used service dog in the world ***(when did this happen? LOL)and that includes but not limited to, detection dogs, K-9 dog both military and police worldwide, seeing eye dogs, herding/tending dog, SAR dogs and last but not least companion dogs. They have maintained there usability by only one way and that is breeding useful dogs only to other useful dog, there is no other way. Breeding a working dog to a show dog will not improve the breed’s viability, therefore why do it.

I am very happy to hear of the WDA’s improvement on how our breed is vetted and will go to the web site to find out more. Regards Norman}}}