Quote: sonya anderson

Connie Sutherland wrote: So basically you're saying that what you wanted (and got) was a dog with an impressive threat display?

They are true working dogs, they are bred to fight/kill wolves and coyotes as needed so the typical burglar is not going to scare them. In their homeland they wear heavily spiked collars as protection and they guard flocks for 6 months at a time by themselves (they hunt to feed themselves during those months).

They are not at all afraid of a fight. They decide when to attack and when to stop attacking based on instinct.

Sonya,
Please feel free to post a link to a documented article that indicates that this breed that has actually stopped a determined human attacker - I can't find one and I'm pretty certain that you don't know what you're talking about.

And by the way, offering "advice" in an area that you have no first-hand experience in is considered bad form in the serious areas of this forum.
If you're going to offer opinions in PPD discussions, please indicate that it's an opinion or back it up by facts - we're strict about that here.

New here and am following this thread and am so impressed with everyone. especially Will's experience.

I have a couple questions/additions:

Will, I have no use for a PPD dog, but thoroughly enjoy and utilize my working dogs - via obedience, tracking, agility, etc and prefer the dog that is naturally defensive and barks. We have agricultural property with livestock and own herding dogs, too, who by the way, also, never turn off, so have to be locked away when not being worked. How do these people get away with charging $25,000 to $75,000 for what they call elite PPD's and are these the sucker trainers? There are so many websites with them.

I have 10 dogs, which include a rottie, a mallie, 2 rat terriers, a lh mini doxie and misc herding dogs. Out of all of them, the most "vicious" dog I own is my female rattie who could easily make a Sch3 dog! My rottie has proven herself and was almost killed while defending us - but only has obed. training and her CGC award. My husband and son are big gun defenders and with AZ now being a CCW legal state now, our backup system is in place.

In reference to the Anatolian and the Pyrs - having had and knowing livestock guardian dogs - they are just that - livestock dogs. My neighbors have 3 Pyrs and all I have to do is yell at them or use a high pitched sound and they back off although they will kill other animals - including their own chickens, cats, other dogs, etc and bark at everything - from falling leaves, to me who has lived next door longer than they have. We had a Pyr/Anatolian x and she was aloof to strangers, made alot of noice but actually grabbed our goats and drug them around the yard - so she found a new home.

I go to Sch training with a friend 2 days a week with a friend who is training - a it is impressive to see, but from what I understand - it is a sport and the dogs do the same routines and see the same decoys, just as Will states. These dogs must first pass their BH before they can ever compete in Sch protection work, thus proving their stability in a crowd, but what would happen if while walking peaceably thru a crowd, and an aggressor approached, how would these dogs be expected to work?

I got my mallie from a breeder who never socialized the dog either with people or with other dogs and the dog was scared out of his skin. At a year old, after having the dog for 3 mo and going thru our first obed class merely for socialization, the dog is 100% better, tho has no natural aggressiveness. Having said that, seeing this dog running and charging my 1/3 acre front yard with a bark much bigger than he is, I doubt anyone would want to come in my yard, let alone with the rottie out front, too.

Interesting thread and very informative. Appreciate those of you with the years of experience and words of wisdom that you impart with others. Merry Christmas!

Remember P.T. Barnum?
He summed it up pretty succinctly.

Lynne,
If you inform the judge before a SchH BH test that your dog is a PPD, they will not touch your dog during the temperament evaluation.

And while I've seen SchH titled dogs that would make great PPD's, I have found that those particular dogs, even if just used for sport, usually are owned by handler/trainers that are generally more alert to their environment and have better control of their dogs then the average handler.

My next dog ( after Fetz dies someday ) will be an ACD ( although I have a Fetz granddaughter from Betty's breeding that is my next training dog, and I'm well pleased with both her work ability and temperament ), which I will do my best to both title in SchH and make a reliable PPD out of. So I've put some time and effort into evaluating various breeds other than our typical GSD/ Mal/ Rottie and it's been informative to see the drives that are innate in the various non-traditional breeds.

Some day when I have more home space I'd like to see what I could accomplish with a Kuvaz, their suspicious temperament might make for an interesting PPD experiment.

very, very interesting. One of our dogs is an ACD, altho 13 yrs old now and totally blind. She has always been especially smart but really was never much for herding. Our Kelpie was the best and was protective, also. If you watch the videos of the cattledog/heeler - SkidBoot, it is amazing how smart some dogs really are.

Kuvasz would be interesting to see as a PPD - being around them at shows, I find them to be somewhat unpredictable at times - more "sharp" than most herding dogs with that edge to them.

The guys at the Sch group can't understand why I don't want to train the mallie - but like you stated - having any type of serious working dog needs constant upkeep. I have horses and find that I tend to devote my attention more to their training while I do expect obedience from my dogs and I want pets, as well. It is also not fair to have high expectations from a dog that clearly doesn't have the correct temperament for the work.

Again, let me tell you all how much I have enjoyed tagging along thru your thread.

Will, I would love to see the results of a Kuvas PPD experiment!
That would be reallly interesting.
I have always liked the Kuvas breed, we actually owned one as a puppy, but at 10 weeks she was growling at at strangers.....At the time I did not have the experience to deal with that so we returned her to the breeder.
Some of the experienced K9 handlers/trainers with our local unit seem to think that Eddie would take any one who messed with me...but that would be so rare for an untrained dog...I have a hard time believing it.
They think that he has the right mix of nerves and such...but....I dunno.
I do know that no one is going to come through him barking at them...and if they do, I'm hosed anyway at that point......well...till I get my carry permit that is.

We have 3 Kuvasz out with the sheep right now. They've tore up a 'yote or two...great protectors, but not for PPD. I wouldn't trust them against anything other than other canines.

Against a person, I would imagine only one out of the three Kuvasz we have would do anything to a human attacker, and Im sure it would probably look something like this:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vIeDn9a5Gcs&playnext=1&list=PLC7A0D3D5BEBAABFC&index=8

 Quote: Webboard User

Against a person, I would imagine only one out of the three Kuvasz we have would do anything to a human attacker

Brian, one out of three? More likely one out of 500 or 1k, believe me, I don't see 1 out of 3 with GSDs or Mals, so you can imagine how many of an alternative breed you'd have to test to find the correct temperament and drives to make a decent PPD.

Like I said, it would just be an experiment......

 Quote: Will Rambeau

 Quote: Webboard User

Against a person, I would imagine only one out of the three Kuvasz we have would do anything to a human attacker

Brian, one out of three? More likely one out of 500 or 1k, believe me, I don't see 1 out of 3 with GSDs or Mals, so you can imagine how many of an alternative breed you'd have to test to find the correct temperament and drives to make a decent PPD.

Like I said, it would just be an experiment......

I agree. I wasn't saying that the one Kuvasz would or could be a PPD. There is no way he could be. I was just saying that out of my 3, only one would attempt a stand. Out of curiosity, I had my helper put a little pressure on all three separately when they were with the sheep. Only the one hung in there and didn't run to the other side of the pen barking and looking back. He stood his ground...more or less. Again, no way I would even consider them as a PPD. Just guardians.