Quote: randy allen

The dog you deserve,
What it means to me; you are going to get back what you're willing to put in. It's a long term investment that doesn't count on any one thing other then a commitment to a steady course over the long haul.
The dog you deserve,
Apropos; to remind one that how you relate to the dog today will have ramifications farther down the road.
Apropos; when you look at the creature with displeasure 3 or 4 years from now, remember he is a product of your upbringing. It's not his fault. There's only one door step to lay the blame on.
He is the dog you deserve.
Randy

And I do agree with that Randy.

My problem with the quote is how it is often used. No one is an island in training a dog for personal protection or sport. There are many, many people involved.

And when you have someone new with their first working dog the other people are even more important.

 Quote: Jenni Williams

Seems to me that a lot of people whose dog isn't good enough (and I don't mean one or two...I mean those people who have a new prospect every 6 mos-a year and there's something wrong w/every one of them) actually aren't good enough for the dog.

Betty....did you read this part?

 Quote: Betty Waldron

...Any time you put control on a dog you are working against their natural drives. I mean how many dogs can't wait to out? And I'm not talking a dog that outs because they know they will get the rebite.....LOL ... I have been guilty of saying my dogs are better suited for personal protection then schutzhund. And it's true to the extent that they are doing better and progressing faster then we did train for schutzhund. But that is because for me at this particular time I am a better handler in PP and I'm enjoying the training.

Betty, what a straightforward and honest post with a ton of truth there.

JMO, of course.

 Quote: Jenni Williams

 Quote: Jenni Williams

Seems to me that a lot of people whose dog isn't good enough (and I don't mean one or two...I mean those people who have a new prospect every 6 mos-a year and there's something wrong w/every one of them) actually aren't good enough for the dog.

Betty....did you read this part?

Sure did!

Really enjoying this discussion. I am one of those who got a dog far, far better than I deserve. So much so that he made me realize that good things CAN happen to me.

In talking to people at my training club (obed, agility) I've learned the phrase, "You get the dog you need." I am taking that to heart. My dog makes me look like a good trainer, but I'm not. I just have a willing, smart dog. I imagine that my next dog is going to be Hell on wheels, and it'll be just what I need to become a better trainer.

Certainly, Schutzhund is a far better match for my dog than SAR was.
Tracking alone would not have satisfied her desire to work and be useful.

Schutzhund appeals more to her utility and work ethic- ultimately I think she is best suited for Personal Protection, and when she is of an age (around age 2) I most likely will begin PP work with her. Until then, Schutzhund is a nice venue to keep her mind sharp, her body fit and to train the fundamentals of control and courage.

I don't use the term very often myself Betty. It's mostly a mantra I keep in my head as I work my dog. If things aren't working out right then I need to be flexible enough to change in the guidance the dog needs.
Or on occasion I'll give it off to a beginner starting out with a dog. And in that case I mean to help them realize the future isn't tomorrow or even next week or month, it's long term......years in fact. And that EVERYTHING one does with their dog counts, not just the training time put in.

Directly though on your thoughts about outside influences and the dependence on outsiders.
Ultimately even a beginner is still responsible for the end result, don't you think? After all they are the ones that spend the most time with the dog, they are the ones the are suppose to be the most engaged with the dog (perhaps even 24/7), they are the ones that the dog looks to for guidance.
If the owners of these dogs take the longer view then a title, then they and their dogs always come out for the better.

Ones dog may deserve someone better, but one will always get the dog they deserve in the end......every time.

Randy

"...Any time you put control on a dog you are working against their natural drives."

Sorry, not truthful and I could not disagree more.
Dogs, like the wolves they evolved from, are pack animals. Almost all need and thrive on control. A strong pack is a pack where each and every member knows its place. If this is not the ultimate version of control then I do not know the meaning of control. This isn't something that is taught, it is a natural instinct and how a pack, and ultimately a species, survives. Very, very few dogs, or wolves, are suited to being a pack leader. Nearly all fall in line and are controlled by that pack leader. If you are a good owner/handler you are the pack leader.
The happiest dogs you will ever see are those that have an excellent owner/handler. A wild out of control dog is not a happy dog. It is usually a dog that lives in a constant state of stress, which ultimately lessens its quality and duration of life.

The key is to use the dogs natural drives to gain control!!!! (wink)

Matt,
I agree, but, I think that others in this thread do not. Most of the people in this thread, from what you have written, believe that training a dog in prey is bad or wrong. Do I, or anyone I know worth their salt, train in prey only? -NO! However, training in prey is useful and it is the most natural of any dog's instincts, drives, etc., whatever you want to call it. Dog's are predators. In the wild this is what provides sustenance. You can take away every other drive from a dog and leave prey intact and it has a chance to survive because it gets to eat. Take its prey drive away and it is dead meat! Simple and true. Defensive drive does not provide it a meal. For those who think that a dog, or wolf, is still in defensive drive when it is has gained the upper hand after being attacked and defending itself are wrong. Its prey has kicked in and taken over. Its prey is what allows it to kill the attacking animal.

The other thing that I wanted to comment about here is that I have read where people do not like the "flashy-ness" (again, not a word) that they see in Schutzhund dogs. I guess this is sort of directed at Alyssa (by the way, nice dog, I know Jean S. is proud). The reason this has developed in Schutzhund is because the way dogs are trained in the sport changed drastically around 1990, or, so. There was a big outcry in the 1980's(here and in Germany) against the methods that were used to train the dogs. While many people were impressed with the results of the training, many, many people were appalled at the methods used to achieve that success. (French Ring people take note here) In other words, there were many dog trainers who were selling their souls to achieve the desired results. A few others, who remembered that they got in to dog training because they actually like dogs, sought different methods that were not abusive to the dogs. They began using methods that made the training fun for the dogs and themselves. They got to lay their heads down at night and realize they achieved success with their dogs without beating the shit out of it. Out of this dogs started showing up at Schutzhund trials and they actually looked like happy dogs instead of the usual brow-beaten dogs that knew that a beating was coming if they screwed up. Judges quickly took notice and the SV (somewhere around 1990, or so) said, hey we may on to something here. They changed the way they judged according to the more positive style of training that started to take place. It was also incorporated in to the rules that the judges were to pay close attention to how the dog and handler interact as a team. So, I think the flashy stuff that you see is really just a natural progression of the style of training used now as opposed to some of the much harsher methods previously used.