Quote: Kelly Byrd

The dog has been trained with drive-compulsion-drive,

Kelly, this is interesting. Can I interpret this to mean that she would have allowed the dog a bite, given it a collar correction and once outed from the correction was rewarded again with the bite?

Just want to make sure I get it right as perhaps something not to do in the future.

Thanks John. There are plenty of saying about any breed... ex: 'If it's not a German Shepherd Dog, it's just a dog', or a personal favorite, 'Loyality, Commitment and Guts, if you dare to own a Dutch'

She should not be offended. I'm a very proud DS owner, and there are many more proud GSD owners out there. No big deal. We each have a breed we gravitate to. Heck, Connie loves Pugs......

She's crazy. I'm not offended.

Is she's really lucky Kelly one day she will take a dog 10 percent as far as you have taken Koening and she will experience 10 percent of the bond you have with your boy.

I mean really really lucky.

 Quote: Betty Waldron

Is she's really lucky Kelly one day she will take a dog 10 percent as far as you have taken Koening and she will experience 10 percent of the bond you have with your boy.

I mean really really lucky.

Betty, did you not read all the stuff she has done with her dog?=She is a legend in her own mind.

I know whatever she was drinkin' was over 10% alcohol by volume.

And I understood about 10% of what she said.

Hi guys, I rarely have time to visit you all these days but I've taken the time to "adjust" access to posting on the forum for a specific individual.

Hopefully things will settle down a bit now.

Carry on!

 Quote:

Heck, Connie loves Pugs......

Well ..... yes ..... Connie is a GSD person involved in Pug rescue.


I love them. But I think that Pugs were and are an ill-conceived breed, with flat faces, crowded mouths, problem tracheas, bulging (often dry) eyeballs, and a host of other health challenges. I would never in a million years encourage this breeding by buying one, and even have long hard talks to myself about the rescue (and indirect encouragement) involvement.

But here they are: they are generally funny, people-sensitive, friendly little dogs, and they are disproportionately desperate for medically-related rescue.

I do love them, but I have to clarify this every once in a while, because the idea behind this flat-faced breed was very ill-advised, IMO.

Back to the thread!

 Quote: Connie Sutherland

 Quote:

Heck, Connie loves Pugs......

Connie is a GSD person involved in Pug rescue. Connie thinks that Pugs were and are an ill-conceived breed, with flat faces, crowded mouths, problem tracheas, bulging (often dry) eyeballs, and a host of other health challenges. Connie would never in a million years encourage this breeding by buying one, and even has long hard talks to herself about the rescue (and indirect encouragement) involvement.

But here they are, they are generally funny, people-sensitive, friendly little dogs, and they are disproportionately desperate for medically-related rescue.

I have to clarify this every once in a while, because the idea behind this flat-faced breed was very ill-advised, IMO.

Back to the thread!

but you still love them >_>

 Quote: jamie craig

... but you still love them >_>

I do!

I have never really recovered from the surprising (to me) fact that the personality of the Pugs I know (and by now, I know many many Pugs ) as companion dogs is very appealing indeed.

They don't fall into the category of "small big dogs" like Border Terriers and other small dogs I have known and loved, but they do indeed have a lot going for them in the personality area.

The physical side, though ..... for me (JMHO) .... it's insupportable (for me) to breed for what they were bred for.

But this is so far off topic ..... I apologize for dragging a good thread so far afield, and I hope we can get it back on track:

 Quote: CJ Barrett

 Quote: Kelly Byrd

The dog has been trained with drive-compulsion-drive,

Kelly, this is interesting. Can I interpret this to mean that she would have allowed the dog a bite, given it a collar correction and once outed from the correction was rewarded again with the bite? ....

That's pretty much it CJ. The dog is so high in drive that it needs a stiff correction to bring it down (so it can think- many -most?- dogs can't think clear headed when they are that high in drive without A LOT of work). Once the dog gets a correction, it can think (out). With practice, a dog will learn to be a bit more clearheaded (thinking) while high in drive, but it can also backfire, and result in a dog who is not listening with out that reminder from the prong/ecollar to take them out of drive when it's not trained correctly. (IMO)

This is a podcast on Drive-Compulsion-Drive training. http://leerburg.com/flix/videodesc.php?id=158

I'm too lazy to explain it, and Ed already has it typed up, oh so nicely, so here ya go- more info on drive-compulsion-drive.
The last stage of teaching an exercise is to teach (PROOF) an exercise by creating an unclear situation for a dog. We force him to think about what he must do. We want to create a situation where the dog will make a mistake and then show him that he must think before he does something or he will get corrected and not reach his drive goal (the toy or food).

This stage of training teaches a dog control over himself. Some dogs go so high in drive that they stop thinking. This step in training (Learning through Conflict) is how these dogs learn to get a grip.

An example of this is when the learning routine is changed just enough to create a mistake. In heeling this can be a speed change in the walk. It can be a right turn or left turn. In training the "Bark and Hold" in protection work, the dog is sent to the helper who is sitting on the ground with two sleeves on, or he is sent into a small building (instead of the blind on the training field) and expected to do a clean bark and hold without biting.

Some form of compulsion is almost always used before an exercise has been fully trained. It is most important that the formula for compulsion is always: DRIVE - COMPULSION - DRIVE.

Simply put, this means that we try and set up our training to begin an exercise in drive (the dog is crazy for his drive goal and trying very hard to do what he can to get it). When it makes a mistake, while in drive, we apply compulsion (corrections). Compulsion takes drive out of the dog. Our final step is to then finish the exercise by putting the dog back into drive, hence DRIVE - COMPULSION - DRIVE.

A perfect example of this is seen in the heeling work. The dog is in drive (he knows he will get his ball after walking a certain number of steps - he doesn't know how many but he knows the ball is coming). The trainer decides that this session is going to require 15 steps before the dog gets his ball. At 10 steps the dog breaks the heel and bounces in front because he cannot stand it any longer, (in his mind he wants his ball and he has heeled long enough), the trainer administers three sharp jerks on the leash to get the dog back into the heel position. This takes some of the drive out of the dog (he is now thinking this is a little less fun than he thought). But as soon as the dog takes 2 or 3 steps in the correct heel position the handler drops the ball and plays with the dog.

After doing this 30 times, the dog will learn that every time I get a correction I am going to get my ball if I do what is expected. When that light bulb goes on in our dog's head we will see dogs go up in drive with corrections. They will also mind when they go up in drive because they know that unless they do what is expected, the next corrections will be harder.

my dog confounds me when I had her the first few months I thought the worst that she was becoming fear aggressive when she snapped at the vet tech for trying to touch her neck when I did and the fact that she is uncomfortable in new surroundings but she will do what I ask no matter what when the vacuum scared her, I told her to touch she did when the umbrella freaked her out when I opened it I told her to touch she did then looked for her treat. Today I brought out a stool to have her stand with her front then back legs then all four and she did it willing with a smile and tail wag looking for more treats. I don't know what type of dog I have but I love her all the same and will work with her since she is so willing to work for me.