Tresa, instead of all the wasted time you spend here posting & getting suggestions from folks here that you don't put into use anyway ...you could spend that time working on potty training your dog.

I don't buy the breed thing. I've been around a number of neurotic dogs that sound just like Logan. Training can fix it. I've seen dogs live our their lives the way he does, with mutilated tails and no teeth trying to eat themselves and their way out of aluminum dog boxes. But ALL of these dogs were rehabilitated to act like a normal high drive dog.

This has nothing to do with breed or drive. This has to do with an understimulated, undertrained dog. I'm not saying you're not capable or willing to do it, but I think you're using the "crazy Dutch Shepherd" excuse a lot more than you should be.

The ONLY dogs I've seen get as crazy as Logan sounds are dogs that have been raised to be ON ON ON ON ON since they were 8 weeks old. It took a lot of training and patience to get them out of that state of mind after other people took the dogs. My friend has a dog that would be like Logan.

Trust me, he's not like most pet dogs. But he's very much like most Malinois and Dutch Shepherds and even high drive German Shepherds. My dog would not do well in a pet home.

More than anything, the dogs need to be taught to relax. Most working dogs bred for work don't just relax. It's not a breed thing. My bitch would be running amok and destroying everything if I didn't give her a down stay in the house.

This is either a mental issue or a dog that needs more mental stimulation, and a dog that needs to be taught that he doesn't run the show, and that he needs to relax when he's not in charge.

Inbred can = Line bred. People do it intentionally to intensify certain traits.


Tresa- can you please do us a favor and leave breed out of it? I have an insane DS. Intense, with a side of handler aggression. Fun. Fun. Pooping in the backyard (or not...) has nothing to do with the breed, or being stubborn. A stubborn dog = a handler that is not communicating properly with the dog!

In everything I've ever read about your Logan, I see NO Dominance. I see a pushy dog, who likely received very very little socialization and exposure as a pup. This means you need to make up for it. This was my dog as well. He's still an ass with other dogs, and has extremely inappropriate body language, but he's not dominant. I'm certain this is Logan as well. I bet the rest of LB agrees with me.

I agree with Katie, and several other posters. Take him out of his kennel to potty. If he doesnt go where and when you want... put him back. Try again later. Eventually he'll go. Promise. If he does not have any medical conditions then I'd be fine with seeing a dog not go for a day or 2. He'll live, and he'll poop in your backyard!

From your post about your bike rides.... I believe it totaled under 3 miles. This wouldn't even begin to take the edge of most 'high drive' working dogs. Try 6 miles. Better yet. Ride 12 miles. WORK that dog, and you'll see a serious improvement in all aspects of his neurotic behavior.


I'm REALLY sorry if this hurts your feelings, because it's not intended that way at all, I promise.

In reality, you've created the dog you have. Getting him at a year old has NOTHING to do with it. Many of us here got our dogs at a year, and several of them have unknown backgrounds, or 'not good' backgrounds with prior owners. Neurotic and OCD or not, After owning him 6 years, he's not going to change easily, and this isn't him being stubborn! It's him being a DOG, who has a routine... even if you're not happy with the routine, it's his.

Work really really hard to change it.... or deal. it's not going to be simple, and it likely won't happen fast. It CAN be done though. Hell. I've done it. I got my dog at a year, he was mistreated, with no obedience, and was hell on wheels, biting anything and everything. (like people. In the head) He's a DS. I've been there. I understand. It can change, but you've got to stop selling Logan short. For all you seem to brag about him being a DS, it also seems you're underestimating his intelligence...


Just a few thoughts to think about.

You guys keep ASSUMING he is under-stimulated and has no rules. Everything is structured, and I spend a huge chunk of my day exercising him, training and playing with him...EVERYDAY. Matter of fact its a lifestyle. He's fine with this routine, I don't have a problem controlling him at all, we've worked through those things.

He acts normal not crazy at all....UNLESS I stop doing what I do with the structure, exercise and training.

I have worked with many many dogs, lots of high drive working dogs too....not many of them even with Logan's drive. No he is not just a typical high drive dog, I'm not kidding you or myself here. I had no idea a dog could be like this when I got him.

Bike rides are split up 2 per day and also he gets sprints in the field, nosework, obedience, agility in the yard....etc. In the winter he gets way more than in the summer, the heat sedates him relatively. So the bike rides he was getting just a month ago were considerably shorter.

Leave the breed out and listen to what I am saying here. You don't know him like I do. Over and over I have said that if I shut him up in a crate/run until he poops in the yard he bark the whole time, spin and bust his tail open....I can't do that to him or have the police called for the barking. I get it what you are saying, I never argued that but I can't do it. That is why I have never trained him to poop in the yard, I know how. (this thread was really about sudden stopping on the bike, which has hopefully been solved, so far it has)

So NO HE IS NOT SUPERDOG....But yes he is Dutchie and has been a HUGE challenge to live with because of his drive and yes even dominance you wouldn't see because you haven't seen him (but I straitened that out, so irrelevant now). If he was a house dog I could spend more down time with him but that's not possible to try that here.

So when I say he's crazy....I'm saying sorry I can't just throw him in a crate or run until he poops outside. I don't mean its bad advice or that he's untrainable...high drive minus walks to poop in yard means crazy dog.

Then that's the answer, you can't train him to do it. I promise you on my life I know dogs as crazy and high drive as he is. You just said it yourself, you can't do the methods we KNOW will work because the police will get called on you.

Trust me when I say that this is not normal behavior and a dog should not act like that crated. No dog should even act like a normal house dog.

THESE ARE TAUGHT BEHAVIORS. You TEACH the dog not to freak out in the crate if he doesn't have exercise, you TEACH the dog not to bark, you TEACH the dog not to be crazy in the house. These are all things you TEACH and they can be done on ANY DOG regardless of breed, drive, whatever you want to say it is.

We have all worked with many many dogs too, we know tried and true methods with the type of dog you own and are dealing with now.

It's not impossible, it is a training issue and you've admitted that for whatever reason you simply can't do it. I'm not saying that you wouldn't if you could or you aren't willing to, but the fact is that you can't.

I've got a solution. If he really is dominant, and as high drive as you say he is, a local K-9 handler would be more then happy to take him off your hands.



You're also right. We don't know him like you do.

Why'd you ask for advice again? You know your dog. Good luck with that.

FYI this thread was about sudden stopping (and that was fixed thanks to some helpful suggestions) not originally about potty training my dog.

Katie...besides the fact that crating a non-exercised dog is not fair....how would you correct the spinning and barking? Normally he NEVER has a problem in a crate or in his run....its just not an issue. I don't allow that crap either. And you absolutely right about the potty training, I was agreeing with it all along just can't really implement it.

Kelly I do not want to get rid of my dog. He's too old anyway. Yes he really is as high drive as I say he is, in fact he was evaluated a couple of years after I rescued him and they were going to take him even though he was over the age cut off....but they wanted to find the right handler for him cuz they saw just how "crazy" he was...but they didn't find one in time. So I kept him and, a few months later he saved my life, but I'll never tell that story here. I'm glad I have him. I ask for advice sometimes because I run into an issue that sometimes an objective person can help me out....that what LB is for right? I know my dog but don't many of us have a lot in common dogwise here?

I have never got how on this forum, if I say one thing just matter of fact about my dog I live with, people disagree cause its not the norm (I guess that's why)...yes he really is like I say (the most high drive, hard, dominant dog *I* have ever seen in over 10 yrs of experience), I am also able to deal with a dog like him believe it or not I learned, and have issues I post about from time to time, he is a HUGE challenge. But I think he's awesome and I brag about him too. But, why assume I am lying or making it up or confused? I mean sure theres a lot of posters like the lady with Mondo..."yes, but" to everything we said...but that was ignorance.

I don't care if it was originally about purple kittens on the moon, this is a dog in distress. I think you're the one doing the disbelieving. I believe Logan is extremely high drive, but you need to believe that others here have dealt with this kind of dog. When I see a dog that's self-mutilating in a crate something tells me that there is an issue and it's not the dog's breed or drive - it's the management of it.

 Quote: Tresa Hendrix

Katie...besides the fact that crating a non-exercised dog is not fair....how would you correct the spinning and barking? Normally he NEVER has a problem in a crate or in his run....its just not an issue. I don't allow that crap either. And you absolutely right about the potty training, I was agreeing with it all along just can't really implement it.

You teach the dog to be calm. You take him straight out of the crate, first thing in the morning, no exercise, no breakfast, no nothing, and you sit on the couch and pick a place for him to lay down. He doesn't get a Bento ball or a bully stick or anything to pre-occupy him. He has to lay down and be calm. No whining, no barking, just relax. I don't use a place command, I use a down stay. So I tell her to lay down. She's usually got an ecollar on but if your dog isn't properly conditioned use a pinch and a line. Correct him for whining, getting up or barking. He can shift in his spot a little bit but if he's getting crazy he gets another correction. Always repeat the command when correcting. He needs to learn how to be calm without having any sort of mental or physical exercise.

BTW I know you know what a high drive dog is, I'm just saying he is way at the top of the spectrum, not impossible just a huge challenge, alot more work than those other dogs were. Compared to all the other high drive dutchies and GSDs I have had/known they were easy! I've sen your vidoes, that definitely is a high drive dog.

Now this I am familiar with, I have done this for other things. He has to be calm before we go walk or I let him out of his run he has to sit. Basically I go with Caesar Milan's approach, calm submissive before anything. I have to use a DD collar on him, the prong he'll just bite me in that scenario. The only reason I never taught him to chill *when he had no exercise* was I always think "no that's not fair". Honestly I just feel bad correcting him like that when I feel like its my fault. (I haven't forgotten about marker training for this FYI)

Speaking of calm submissive....with Logan I find myself rewarding intense focus calm more often because thats the best I can get out of him. What do you think of that, just curious? In obedience, thats exactly what we want but around the home no, and I try to make that distinction. After his walk/training session and I am working I can insist on a calm down on his bed before he gets his kong. I don't like to fight against a dog's nature.

Ok so, out of the crate is one thing, but in the crate/run and neglected. Ignoring him does nothing, he'll bark forever or possibly hurt himself...its best to not neglect him.

FYI your right about management, as long as his needs are met he is calm in his crate or run and good when I take him out or when I'm working. He hasn't busted his tail spinning in a long while. He just needs a lot to do. But don't think I don't correct him for insanity under normal circumstances.

It transfers to the crate. I don't care for Cesar Milan. The working dog people out here in LA all think he's a joke as well. But that's beside the point.

No, this training would not be fair. But a few weeks or a month of unfair training for a lifetime of comfort is 100% worth it to me.