I know what everyone is saying, and Amber i have read Eds article in fact i bought three DD collars from Leerburg, The First one got chewed up in the first day, (My Fault)
If my memory serves me correctly and without going back to Ref it, Ed said that once he gave the Dog the hard correction with the DD Collar That Dog would not be aggresseve towards the Handler again , But he also said that did not mean that the dog would treat other People the same way as its handler, or words to that meaning.
Carol,
You misread part of my post, I did not say anyone ever said it was ;Cut and Dry, It was me making that Ref, It is a English saying which possibly you are not aware of, Some of your Counrymens sayings confuse me as well, We speak the same Language but some meanings or Phases are different
I also notice no one has thought it needed to say anything about the post i put in on My Dog 'Fred' regarding the Training Field Problem,
Any comments would be welcomed on that, as these posts in one respect applies partly to his problem, but not i expect in the context some are refering too

Guys, I feel like we are speaking two different languages. When I used the example of kneeing the dog I was saying that there are times when you must use any means necessary to control the dog. I understand that. If I had they type of dog Matt has he would probably have a DD collar on 24-7 for use in emergencies. I would also take care not to take him or expose him to places where he is going to fail by losing control, thus forcing me to use the dd collar. At no point would I set up to fail so I could correct him

And I disagree Debbie. I train my dogs slow and steady. When they are ready for the next step I expose them to another distraction etc. If I have to physically correct my dog(and I have) then it means I moved to fast as a trainer and should take a step back. This way I know if a dog has generalized a command.

 Quote: Steve Patrick

Carol,
You misread part of my post, I did not say anyone ever said it was ;Cut and Dry,

Ooops. Sorry about that ....I did misread....thank goodness for Firefox where I can toggle back and forth to reference stuff....hee hee


And, I missed your post on Fred, my bad. I will read it, but cannot promise I will have anything to say...it might be something I would be interested in an answer as well......

 Quote: benjamin colbert

I would also take care not to take him or expose him to places where he is going to fail by losing control, thus forcing me to use the dd collar.

But Ben, we're not talking about "losing control." We're talking about a dog that is 100% top-notch DOMINANT. That's not a loss of control, that's the quest to force everyone else to be submissive to THEM. Again, it's not the same as other forms of aggression.

You cannot EVER live with a dog that you are submissive to, it would be a disaster. You have to show the dog that YOU can win the fight THEY bring on. It's not good or bad to them, it's just the language they speak.

Edited by Amber Morgan (12/05/2007 02:15 PM)
Edit reason: an oops.

 Quote: Benjamin Colbert

I may have my reservations about the dominant dog collar

 Quote: Benjamin Colbert

If I had the type of dog Matt has he would probably have a DD collar on 24-7 for use in emergencies.

In my eyes, this indicates that information is indeed changing hands. I feel sure than information from Benjamin to others has done so as well.

One thing that maybe has been glossed over is that dangerous behaviors really have to be happening to be corrected. This can mean setting up the situation again in a controlled situation.

 Quote: Steve Patrick

If my memory serves me correctly and without going back to Ref it, Ed said that once he gave the Dog the hard correction with the DD Collar That Dog would not be aggresseve towards the Handler again , But he also said that did not mean that the dog would treat other People the same way as its handler, or words to that meaning.

If I'm reading your post right, then you're right. A highly dominant and aggressive dog will not apply those principles he learned with the handler to other people. That kind of a dog is a huge responsibility to own, for that reason.

 Quote: Amber Morgan

You cannot EVER live with a dog that you are submissive to, it would be a disaster. You have to show the dog that YOU can win the fight THEY bring on. It's not good or bad to them, it's just the language they speak.

No, you can't, unless it a laid-back, submissive dog and you just happen to outdo the dog in submission. Not a great situation, but probably not dangerous.

I agree that the dog cannot win in a confrontation with the human.

You can't always wait for a situation to present itself.
Sometimes you have to make them happen in order to learn from them.

 Quote: Wendy Lefebvre

You can't always wait for a situation to present itself.
Sometimes you have to make them happen in order to learn from them.

Exactly.

 Quote: Benjamin Colbert

How many times do I have to defend myself. Matt this is the exact situation in which I could see a DD collar being completely appropriate. What I find inappropriate would be if you were to call your fellow officer to meet you and then reenact the situation in order to give you a chance to correct the dog again. This is the training situation I'm speaking about.

Why not set the dog up to repeat the dangerous behavior so that you can eliminate it?