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The key is to use the dogs natural drives to gain control!!!!

Just as an academic exericise, I tried training one particular thing with nothing more than using interesting piss marks as a reward (and his freedom to go sniff them).

Turned neutral/annoying happenstance into a reward which actually induced quite an enthusastic response.

 Quote: stevezorn

Dog's are predators. In the wild this is what provides sustenance. You can take away every other drive from a dog and leave prey intact and it has a chance to survive because it gets to eat. Take its prey drive away and it is dead meat! Simple and true. Defensive drive does not provide it a meal. For those who think that a dog, or wolf, is still in defensive drive when it is has gained the upper hand after being attacked and defending itself are wrong. Its prey has kicked in and taken over. Its prey is what allows it to kill the attacking animal.

You think dogs fight men to kill them and eat them? A dog is thinking of food when he's biting a sleeve? Doubtful. Humans are not natural prey for a dog. I think this is something else altogether....fight. No, let's not start another blessed "fight drive thread."

Dogs are not wolves...and I hate to break it to everyone, but we all may see very soon that they never were. Dogs are social animals- not just "pack" animals. Not to say an overly prey driven dog can't be taught just about anything for the reward of biting something whizzing by its face...but to say when the dog is engaged in a knock-down, dragout with a man that it is working in prey, IMO, is missing the boat.

I think it is very short sighted to say a dog has to be working in one drive or another at all times. Why must we label them so? Like I said before, they go through a continuum of different instincts/drives/thoughts that cause certain behaviors. We are selling both them and ourselves short by having to pigeon-hole all canine behavior into neat and tidy terms like prey and defense. Let's just open our eyes and look at the big picture. There are many motivators all working together.

Flashiness is a word, BTW. So is breedworthiness/breed worthiness...word, phrase...whatever.

 Quote: steven lepic

Time is money, and things need to hit the ground running with newb handlers in a matter of weeks. Right? That's the modern context of PSDs. Someone please correct me where I stray in my observations.

Regarding the aforementioned motivation:

Herein enters....a ball. Not as romantic as working for "the man", but...it's fall down simple.

Anyone can use it. Doesn't take a special bond several years in the making in order to work.

That's reality.

Sadly, I think you are mostly right. I was shocked at the lack of training and just plain dog experience that a PSD handler can have. Yes, I know everyone has to start somewhere, but I would think that there would be a minimum level of competency and natural aptitude that I am not seeing. Yes, time is money and they push fast to get that dog on the street.

As an example, Xander had absolutely zero bitework due to a longterm experiment I was conducting. Due to a serious of circumstances, I sold him to a dept. as a dual purpose dog. Within a week-ONE week- he was being tested on his bite. He did fine, BTW (my experiment turned out how I thought, LOL). The day he passed his final test (series of environmental tests combined w/bitework, etc.) he went home w/his new handler...to be his first PSD ever. Xander was chosen for this handler because he is totally new, has no prior working dog experience, and has toddlers at home. Apparently, they have no other stable dogs available who can live in the home, not eat the kids, and work the street. Gee, could that be because of our seriously screwed up breeding goals??? But I digress.

My point is that what Steve L is saying is true...but that doesn't mean it's the best way to go all the time. While the prey/play motivators are certainly a useful tool, esp. for those who are newbies, I don't think that they should be relied on exclusively. I hate to sound romantic...but what's wrong w/building a bond over years and having the kind of relationship where the dog DOES work for you?

We are seriously digressing from the OP, but I think both man and dog miss out when we try to make things "fall down simple." I think the relationship between humans and dogs is one of the coolest, most complex ever. JMHO (and the H stands for hormonal these days,LOL).

This has turned into an interesting thread...one of the best we've had around here in a loooong time.

Easier, doesn't mean better.

And ultimately, that's my gripe.

A dog CAN be trained without compulsion, and without prey items.

Yes. And I think though it may be more time consuming, it's a richer reward in the end.

Alyssa, Jenni, Why??? I'm not getting it.

Quote{I think it is very short sighted to say a dog has to be working in one drive or another at all times. Why must we label them so? Like I said before, they go through a continuum of different instincts/drives/thoughts that cause certain behaviors. We are selling both them and ourselves short by having to pigeon-hole all canine behavior into neat and tidy terms like prey and defense. Let's just open our eyes and look at the big picture. There are many motivators all working together.}End Quote

I remember seeing a post by Kevin Sheldahl somewhere(can't remember exactly, stating something about how and why we use the "prey drive"/"defensive drive" terms. He said something to the effect that since we cannot pinpoint one or the other, rather only elude to certain behaviors or groups of behaviors and assume that this is what we(the trainer/handler) are trying to reach. We group these behaviors and give them these terms for ways to simply communicate about the dog, however in reality there is no such thing as a prey or defense or whatever drive, rather a group of associated patterns or behaviors which are then "termed" such.

Kevin, sorry if I botched up your point.
Hope that made sense.8}

And if one has the skill/insight/experience to actually define and recognize individual motivators/responses and therefore bond closer and steer the dog more effectively towards an objective...kudos

I remember that post by Kevin. That was one of my all-time favorites. I suck at saying things as clearly. I try too hard to make what I mean clear that I go on too long and muddle it.

Then we have Steve, who post something so short, like "Why???" and I have no idea what he's talking about, LOL. Why what, Steve?

Ray, you can try PM'ing me again. I don't know why you couldn't get through but other people have. Sometimes that happens when YOUR outbox is too full, so delete some of your sent messages if that happens again.

Why train the dog without prey items (play) and why is it more rewarding? I'm just picturing boring repetion. What am I not keeping up with here?