Wow Kelly, great information. And I certainly wasn't expecting you to go into that much detail, a simple “Yes” would have done the trick… lol (sure do appreciate it though).

With all these silly questions of mine, you had me hunting around with that link. A whole new section on Leerburg here that I haven’t even begun to explore. Haven't really gone there because… well I guess because I don’t have a dog that’s capable of doing it right now.

And I’m not sure why my interest is so tweaked right now (watching you and Mr. Fantastic may have had something to with that :grin but I don’t think there’s anything wrong with learning some theory and rules ahead of time.

I’m so glad you posted this, about the way that dog was trained. The video you linked is causing me a bunch of grief right now. It’s barely running but our weather is terrible so that may have something to do with it. I’m going to try it again later.

Can’t wait to see Michael’s take on it. Damn computer.

Again thank you so much Kelly. Really appreciated!!! And keep popping in those great comments hey...

And Elizabeth, that’s interesting you mention the umbrella. After seeing some of the temperament testing threads/videos, I also tried the same thing with Vince.

I walked outside with it, he was interested in it – closed, so I let him sniff it. He took a whiff and then just looked at me like okay… where’s my ball? I had him sit and then opened it fairly quickly towards his face. He held his sit but tried to look around it – no real reaction, almost a complete avoidance, trying to look through it to me. Almost like it wasn’t even there. Tried it a few more times and he almost seemed to get bored, head looking sideways like “can we do something else now?”

Tried it with Echo and he tucked tail - running sideways, head down, ears forward for about 10 feet. No hackles though, which can shoot up quite quickly if he’s been startled. And then he got the zoomies, bounced all around me but wouldn’t come near it. It was very interesting. I’m doing some work with him in that area now. He will jump on and off anything though.

this is all really fascinating to me you guys....

It's complicated, huh? Every time I think I get something figured out, someone slaps me upside the head, and I learn a new tool/technique. Some more useful then others, but still nice to know, regardless of if I will apply the technique or not.

Thanks for taking the time to write all that out Kelly! Lots of good info

 Quote: Kelly Byrd

It's complicated, huh?

It is, but you know some things just makes so much sense. I actually quite appreciate those slaps upside the head.

Taking into account the different temperaments and trainer experiences/styles, it really is about us remaining open to learning ourselves and what might, will, is working for the dog in front of us. Get tested and find out what’s not hey.

I've been finding this thread fascinating!

 Quote: CJ Barrett

 Quote: Kelly Byrd

It's complicated, huh?

It is, but you know some things just makes so much sense. I actually quite appreciate those slaps upside the head.

Taking into account the different temperaments and trainer experiences/styles, it really is about us remaining open to learning ourselves and what might, will, is working for the dog in front of us. Get tested and find out what’s not hey.

I also appreiciate those slaps up alongside the head and I agree it's about learning about how to help the dog in front of us become the best dog they can be.

This Drive-Compulsion-Drive stuff comes from The Motivational Steps to all Dog Training that dates back to 2001. It seems that dog training has evolved since then. For example, it has been suggested that capping exercises (stop barking at the decoy and watch me) are taught away from the complex point-scoring behaviors like heeling and are introduced at lower arousal levels to accommodate the learning process.

Even though D-C-D is a legitimate training technique it might be more productive to start with Michael Ellis-style training and see where it takes you. Especially with pets that don't *have* to perform specific tasks to earn their keep.

I've got absolutely nothing against compulsion - it builds character

 Quote: Ana Kozlowsky

I've got absolutely nothing against compulsion - it builds character

Wise words. I completely agree with you.

 Quote:

Even though D-C-D is a legitimate training technique it might be more productive to start with Michael Ellis-style training and see where it takes you.

Well said, Ana, I totally agree with you.

Ana, I so totally agree too. Still can’t get Michael’s to run properly but what’s been explained here is not something I would want to introduce to Vince, or any of my dogs. And while I understand the concept, and perhaps because I’m applying this theory to his fear base, (and as you say, him simply being a pet) I just can’t see him getting any long term, productive meaning out of it.

I get excited and do this, then you tell me no and you really want me to do it again?

As tough as he can pretend to be (I can see through him – I’m sure many could) he is definitely what I would call a soft dog. A misplaced “no” (from me – he really could care less what Bob says) can take him out drive. Of course, nothing his “special” ball can’t restore. But he really is super sensitive, in more ways than one, unfortunately.

I think it would confuse the heck out of him and not in a good way. He’s had very little compulsion, unless self inflicted or proofing for the absolutes (wildlife, boundary stuff, a couple of initial social faux pas). Very little has ever been needed but I’m also taking it extremely slow with him. He really is an “obedient” boy and just tries his heart out. How can you compulsion correct that?

I do agree, this does seem rather “old school”.