***Just a comment re stock dogs and rewards, motivational toys etc. It unheard of in this country to use anykind of rewards or toys to motivate a dog to work stock, they
do it cause they love it.***

You are absolutely right, Brendan. It's unheard of even in this country (I hope). In herding, just like in protection, the bite is the reward and the motivator. I don't do herding--if you have questions, ask Ellen, she's the expert.

I do SchH--and I use toys to train obedience, as a motivator and a reward. Of course, obedience could be done strictly through compulsion and praise, but you don't get the picture that judges like to see--a dog who is happy and willing to work. I use food to teach a dog to track SchH-style. If there are better ways, let me know. And needless to say, as Vince pointed out, there is no place for food or toys in protection. I don't remember anyone suggesting that.

I wasn't going to post after "losing it" yesterday but just so I don't get into any deeper hot water, I do want to make just one clarification about Renee's statement: "In herding, just like in protection, the bite is the reward and the motivator.".

The bite is not totally the reward for a good herding dog -- or, better, the dog is not biting out of the drive to bite, it is biting out of a drive to possess/hold/stop the sheep. The bite is an indication of the dog's level of attraction to the sheep. I know this might sound odd but . . . IMO it is not always correct to assume that when the dog bites (in prey) it means that the dog wants to only bite or to kill. If the dog isn't hungry (which most aren't), the kill or the bite are not the prime motivators -- again IMO from what I have observed herding here with my line of dogs. If the dog is a good selectively bred and tested herding dog, the dog should be biting purely out of an overwhelming (instinctual) attraction to the sheep -- IOW the bite demonstrates the dog's desire/drive to possess the sheep, to keep it from escaping, to stop the motion, to contain or control the sheep. The only thing the dog has to stop or possess the sheep with is its teeth -- no hands <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" /> so it bites. Damage occurs because of the sheep's natural reaction to being gripped -- it tries to escape. This is what causes the dog to fight harder & bite harder to hold on. If the sheep stops and stays still, the dog will often release the grip and stay standing over the sheep -- if it doesn't release, the dog does not shake, it holds on calm & full. If the sheep tries to escape again which often happens then the dog re-grips. I have never had one of my dogs intentionally try to kill a sheep unless for some reason it really took a strong dislike to one particular sheep (which I have seen happen and it is usually because the sheep is not behaving normally over a period of time often because it turns out to be sick). To the inexperienced eye -- like we all have when learning something new -- the dog very definitely looks like it is out to kill a sheep when it bites -- but as a rule a good herding dog isn't out to kill (I won't say "never" because there is always an exception).

The art of training a good herding dog without sacrificing its drive is to understand WHY the dog bites (to possess) and to teach it an acceptable alternative behavior that accomplishes the same thing -- to hold the sheep inside a boundary for example.

So in one sense Renee is correct -- the dog is rewarded when it bites because it is possessing the sheep at that moment -- BUT IMO the bite is not the motivator otherwise you couldn't teach an acceptable alternative behavior to satisfy the drive. The motivator is to stop the sheep from escaping and the bite is just one behavior that can be used to achieve this.

Now like I promised, Renee, my 4 typing fingers will be FedExed to you ASAP. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

Bill-

Take a look at the poster "A few good men" at Ed`s home pages. On this photo there are 4 dogs. Only 3 of them are showing, because the last one is hidden IN the SMOKE. It`s a black GSD. The smoke you can see on that photo is made by throwing tree smoke hand grenades, and by burning two car tyres filled with oil and gasoline. These dogs have never been trained too work in a "smokey" environment. And yet they did well on this photo don`t you think.

How I know that the last dog was black?????
I`m one of the guys there........:-)))

Great post Mika <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> I have that poster hanging on my wall. There's nothing better than a "few good men" to look at everyday <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

Not trying to keep the flames going, but here's some additions to the smoke,fire and real bullet issues. Not all dogs are trained for PSD roles or Personal Protection either, there are still many dogs involved in terrorism who do need to go through smoke and live fire. There are dogs involved in forested search and rescue during fires also. There are dogs involved in mining accident searches too, these can contain deady dust smoke should a cave-in occur during the search. So aside from tactical swat dogs, there is still the need to have green dogs used to smoke, fire and live ammunition. Plus yes the sound of a bullet coming is different than the sound of a bullet leaving, so it can't hurt the dog one way or the other to get used to it.
The only reason I could see training green dogs to be comfortable around this stuff is if you feel you need it one day or you intend on selling them green but fully environmentally sound and ready for training. That's what I do, I get them ready environmentally for anything they may be training towards later or now.
As for toys/vs./no reward, it's a call on the type of training, narc and detection dogs use toys, it keeps them working. Sar and manscent dogs do not, it's the drive to search that keeps them working, Article dogs should not get a reward, because it can cause a dog to use the article as a toy and stop working instead of searching on for more articles of human scent. Cadaver dogs should not get toys, because they should be going until they drop and finding each source of blood/tissue. I state these differences because a dog is genetically geared to hunt/search for food, sorry but human scent is animal scent and we fit the bill for their instinctual drives to search. Hence, no reward needed in a high drive dog. But narcotics and bombs and such do require rewards, there is no other logical reason why the dog would continue the search otherwise.
Anyone can jump in and give me their opinions and counter if you believe I am off somewhere, just be nice about it, I'm not saying I'm right, it's just my own belief's.
<img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

Hi Liz,
I have to disagree on some minor.. well not so minor points here. Yes some dogs are satisfied with the hunt and search, but MOST need external rewards. Every good SAR dog I have worked with has had some toy reward upon making a find. I met a FBI handler who does search work for the FBI and she too uses toy rewards for finds. One of the best Forensic Cadaver dogs I have EVER seen always gets a toy for his finds. I don't think the FBI or other LEO want dogs rolling or playing in a crime scene as a reward...no matter how much the dog wants to LOL. The handlers all uses a rewards for their finds. I have yet to meet or see a SAR dog trained without one, or be reliably deployable without one. Not saying there isn't one, but I don't think it's a norm. Sorry I'm not sure I buy into the whole "victim loyalty" thing. I think it's a learned behavior of I(dog) find you, I bark, I get what I want...dog satisfies own drive, does not "care" that they found the missing kid or Altimeters patient. Give me what "I" want...gimme gimme gimme... Some mantracking Bloodhounds I have worked with get excited for the find, but are really happy to get their toy at the end..and some of them were the nastiest, grosses dogs with their toys by the way...Dogs or animals in the wild don't "hunt" if they are not hungry. They would not track, trail, airscent, whatever for miles if at the end there was no food..a SAR dog "hunts" for the smell of live or dead for the "reward, not of the find, but the reward of the toy, tug, whatever.
In regards to smoke, guns ect..the actual number of dogs deployed in these situations are few and far between. If a dog needs to be trained for ACTUAL deployments, so be it. I don't think MOST ever do. Even the military handlers who have posted here back up this statement. You can't just blow up cars, buildings and practice reality. If the dogs are properly selected and trained, they will easily adapt to the surroundings.

Josh,
Good post! I totally agree with you. I've seen some SAR handlers do really goofy things. Some handlers I've talked to are waiting for the dog to *learn to take it seriously*. I don't think that's going to happen. As you said, the dog is working for the toy.
As for deploying a dog during a fire, at the scene of the fire? I can't imagine it. Great way to ensure that your dog gets a mechanical pneumonia from the smoke. I hope I read that wrong and there isn't a group out there someplace sending dogs into fires.

Hi Josh and Joy, OK, I think your right that most trainers feel the need to use a toy reward even for manscent, but, I have always found it interferes in the training and the reliability of the dogs. I get more serious and willing work when I leave the toys out all together. I am learning though, that in sport bitework, that's an exception and I use the tug as a toy more or less.
Joy, I know there are dogs deployed into forest fire areas, of course not into a wild flame and severe smoke, but smoke and many hot spot remnants none the less. Victims have to be located. I would most certainly send my own beloved dog into a forested area during fire if it meant saving a lost little child or even an adult or another dog, I train with the knowledge that it's a dog job and they serve us whether we like it in our hearts or not.
I will do what it takes however to protect a dog from harm, but not at the expense of someone needing help. There are many more dogs and they do not have the same comprehension that humans do, so they come second. Not fair but no life is fair.
Joy, I am not sure what you mean by "some sar trainers/handlers do crazy things and think the dog will become serious at some point" can you please re-phrase it for me. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

Wouldn't smoke interfere with the dog's ability to air scent and/or track?

Liz,
Go back and re-read my post, that is not what I said.
Ellen, that would be my question as well, how is the dog going to air scent or track in smoke?