Quote: randy allen

That you stake so much on this business on a wolf that cornering something 4 or 5 times it's size and weight and doesn't go in for the kill absolutely amazes me. Here, I'll explain it in simple terms for you: the animal is holding the soon to be food for the rest of the pack, otherwise there will be no food today and our best hunter will not be able to hunt tomorrow. That make sense in the big scope of 'pack' Mr. Kelly?

It might if you were a little clear on what you mean. As written I have no idea what your position is. Sorry.

Are you saying that when a moose is cornered and menaces a wolf with his antlers, that the height of the moose and the presence of said antlers doesn't mean anything to the wolf because the wolf somehow sees the animal as food, and recognizes that if he doesn't it kill it and eat it today he won't be able to hunt tomorrow? If so you're putting all kinds of mental layers onto the wolf's experience in that moment. He's not thinking about anything but surviving that one moment in time. How is he thinking about what he's going to do tomorrow? How is he even thinking that he's going to eat the moose? That's crazy.

Granted, if the wolf is already in close enough to grab hold of the moose he would probably do so, particularly if the moose breaks eye contact. But if the wolf is far enough way -- which might just be a couple of feet or so -- he's not going to go any closer until another wolf comes at the moose from behind or from the other side, thereby distracting the moose. But in a one-on-one situation -- as I've illustrated in my graphic -- both the wolf and the moose are going to stand their ground until something changes the energetic dynamic of the situation. It's your basic stand off; they both have the same magnetic charge at that moment.

And yes, believe it or not, when a moose or elk turns and stares down a wolf it stops the wolf in his tracks, at least momentarily. And the biggest part of that equation is the spatial dynamic between the verticality of the moose and the lower and more horizontal nature of the wolf.

 Quote: randy allen

Now I don't know how many working dogs you've met and decided they were just really scared because you stood taller then them but I hope for your sake not many. The dogs we here at Leerburg keep are mostly from the herding guardian group, they are bred to stand stalwart against the odds, it's in their hard wiring, and we accent that with training and support. I dare you try to buffalo one of these dogs. So I'm not going to do any more entertaining your clap trap about taller than thou.

Me buffalo a dog? What in hell are you talking about?

Look, Stevie, I think you're making a huge misinterpretation about a) what I meant in my article (if you actually read it), and b) what any dog's experience is going to be like when he's met with a taller being, particularly one moving toward him in a menacing manner, as Cesar Millan does. Some dogs will be cowed by it and produce a non-threatening posture (i.e., act "submissive"), which is what makes Cesar Millan seem so "magical" to his viewers. Meanwhile another dog, with a harder, stronger temperament, would feel a jolt of adrenaline (i.e., fear), and would turn that fear energy into aggression. After all, aggression is always based on some kind of fear. So your little wishful-thinking scenario of me being mauled by one of your dogs doesn't wash because I would never use my height to try to intimidate one of your dogs. Just the opposite.

I've only had one experience with a livestock guarding dog. It took place on Third Avenue and 63rd Street in New York City. His owner -- who was a little mentally unstable -- thought it would be better to meet her dog outdoors rather than inside her apartment. (She was thinking clearly about that.) Granted I didn't make much headway with him -- a very big and very calm (too calm, if you know what I mean) Ovcharka -- but I did get him to take food from my hand. I'm told in some circles that counts as quite a success with an Ovcharka.

 Quote: randy allen

Ya know what I think? I think it's people like you Mr. Kelly that keeps this very old concept of pack mentality alive more than anyone else, and also I think you do it consciencely, just for your own pocketbook.

That's funny. How am I making money on this?

LCK

Who is Stevie?

Lee, is there any chance of linking us to the article we did read (pre-revision)?

I'm mildly irritated that you are saying "if you actually read it," because I "actually" did read it ten days or so ago, but now "it" isn't there any more.

Chuckie,Chuckie,Chuckie. A joke Chuckie. Just a Joke. I didnt read anything other then a few words that stood out and could be part of the punchline. I doubt I'd be able to listen to you either.

 Quote:

That's funny. How am I making money on this?

LCK

You shouldnt be. Regards,Stevie.

How do lone wolves, who split away from packs (and thus have no hunting partner to distract the moose) not starve to death?

There may not be any kind of pack social order among wolves--I'll leave that to others to argue--but I'm pretty sure there is one at dog discussion boards.

 Quote: doug alcorn

Your comments on energy versus what CM talks about energy certainly clarify your position. I think it's a bit disingenuous to say what you're describing is a "property of physics". That seams to imply you could rig up a meter and measure the dog's energy (either positive or negative). Now that would be a great training aid! Put the thing on the dog's collar with some color/visual feedback so you'd know when you were on the right/wrong track. I don't think you're saying such a thing is/could be possible.

Who knows what the future holds?

But no, it's not something that can be easily measured in such a way. However, it is possible -- once you take a step back and look at the dog's behavior as an expression of energy -- to see what I mean. You can actually see behavior as a flow of energy. You can see it build up in a dog, a bit like water building up behind a dam. You can see the pressure the dog is feeling, and you can see how he chooses to relieve that pressure.

In a reply I made to Stevie, I mentioned something about the wolf and the moose being in a stand off, as if they were the same poles of a magnet. Magnetic north and magnetic north repel each other, right? But magnetic north and magnetic south attract one another. You can actually see this kind of energy exchange when two dogs meet. Their magnetic poles are constantly changing.

 Quote: doug alcorn

If I understand what you're saying, is that all dogs want to be in the neutral energy state. Their energy builds up (for some reason) and they need to release this energy to go back to neutral. The energy buildup is a property of external stimuli or I guess also internal?

Yes, it's both. Dogs with behavioral problems tend to have issues because their emotional energy gets balled up inside and doesn't have a clear outlet. Or else they get overloaded by too much energy in a situation where another dog would be unfazed by it. But it all comes down to energy in the end.

And I wouldn't say dogs want to be in "neutral." I'd say that they very much enjoy being in an aroused state as long as they have a satisfying means of relieving the internal pressure that such an arousal creates. For instance, I think most dogs who are fascinated with squirrels would rather feel the excitement of seeing one rather than to just spend their time sniffing the grass and looking for sticks to chew. But a dog whose desire to chase the squirrel is constantly and consistently squelched, rather than redirected into a stick, for example, or an exciting heeling session, is going to come away from the park with a certain amount of unresolved stress. (Years ago I noticed that if I gave my dog a good amount of play time -- fetch and tug -- in the park, he had less of a need to chew a rawhide bone when we came back to the apartment.)

So I would say that dogs enjoy having the right amount of energy for a particular situation, and having a satisfying way to release that energy. If the dog's emotional system is balanced, they'll find other ways to relieve that stress, usually through chewing their bones or toys.

 Quote: doug alcorn

Anyway, I do find your writings interesting. Thank you for all the references. It gives me something to read and research.

Well, thanks for "inviting" me here by posting the link to my article.

LCK

 Quote: connie sutherland

Lee, is there any chance of linking us to the article we did read (pre-revision)?

I'm mildly irritated that you are saying "if you actually read it," because I "actually" did read it ten days or so ago, but now "it" isn't there any more.

Yeah, I'd probably be irritated too. But sorry, there's no way to go back to the original. We must press on into the future. (No more revisions.)

I apologize for the semi-accusatory tone of that statement. My bad.

And in case you haven't figured it out, "Stevie" is Steve Strom (as I'm apparently "Chuckie" to him...)

LCK

Connie, try Google's cacheing feature.
Save a screenshot for us, eh?

(if I have time later, I'll do it myself)

 Quote: lee kelley

And in case you haven't figured it out, "Stevie" is Steve Strom (as I'm apparently "Chuckie" to him...)

LCK

Yes, I have; it would have been sooner if you had not been quoting Randy rather than Steve in your "Stevie" post.