Quote: Ana Kozlowsky

Even though D-C-D is a legitimate training technique it might be more productive to start with Michael Ellis-style training and see where it takes you.

Which is exactly why the dog I mentioned earlier didn't out. She can't think w/o the correction taking her lower into drive. Marker work could (would) go FAR with this dog and handler.

 Quote: Kelly Byrd

Which is exactly why the dog I mentioned earlier didn't out.

Well there ya go. A new, fun, consistent approach and no more blowing off the “out” for that Shch 2. I think we can really help people here Kelly. Any Shch 3’s having problems? LMAO.

As you know, I have absolutely no idea what I’m talking about. If only it were that simple.

It would seem that you'd need a lot of drive to do this training, a forgiving nature, and a strong bond. Sounds like field trial lab training. My dog doesn't like me to change my mind mid-stream, it puts him into a "well, do it YOURSELF then" mindset.

I would think there’s an incredible amount of finesse involved too and timing would have to be so accurate to get it right.

Vince is much same as Pinker, but he does have a lot of drive and will try extremely hard to figure out what I want. It’s quite rare he doesn’t make some progress that I’m able to reward. Corrections can shut him down pretty quick.

What a good topoic. Learning so much here.

I think that I met one fear bitter in my life.

It was born that way. Friend of mine got a lab, she wanted a laidback one. When she went to pick up the pup there was that pup who would hide in the corner and growl. She decided on that one instead of the breed's choice. She got her deposit back and no paper.

That dog would hide in corners and charge any one coming into the same area. She had to rigg his crate with a rope so she could close the door with out getting a bite.

She could not take it off property or have friends over safely.
In the 2 years that she had the dog she never been able to toutch it once he was more then a small pup.

She finaly had it PTS after many bites.

 Quote: CJ Barrett

 Quote: Kelly Byrd

Which is exactly why the dog I mentioned earlier didn't out.

Well there ya go. A new, fun, consistent approach and no more blowing off the “out” for that Shch 2. I think we can really help people here Kelly. Any Shch 3’s having problems? LMAO.

Actually yes. The SchH 3 at the trial blew Obedience. The handlers train together. Hummmmmm

Kelly, it is not fair to say the dog didn't out because of a type of training.maybe the handler was nervous? i have been in trials where the helper broke the stick over my dog's back ( years before the padded stick)and had helpers step on my dog .the dog outed slow, lost points.things happen. to say if they used M.Ellis training they would out? He is a great trainer,I trained at SCH clubs in Germany and learned a lot from small club trainers . IMO Helmut Raiser is way ahead of M.Ellis in protection work even in the 80's. if you get a chance watch a video or attend his seminar( unbelievable) you can you will learn from everyone When you compete in SCH trials you will understand stuff happens and for no rhyme or reason. My dog always gave me the dumbbell and in the trial decided not let go LOL never screwed up again ? sometimes it's the handler not the dog fault using that was the case when i competed I think my typing is getting better lol

Discussions between people who know the handler and the dog have pretty much cemented the fact that specific training used on this particular dog enforced the behavior.

Gosh John, I took your post as one of the those “slaps upside the head”. There is a lot in there that really resonates with me. Not that it’s the case here but just when you may think you have the answer, it really could be something different.

In those videos that Ana posted with the champion dog not “outing”, I could have sworn it was the decoy… albeit my hair brained notion was the color of his suit - black, black, black (perfect, perfect, perfect) then blue and he doesn’t out.

I actually really like wearing black - blue just might put me in a different frame of mind and have me stepping on (throwing off/pissing off) my dog too. Of course that's probably totally off the wall, but I think I get what you’re saying. Interesting.

Way off topic but I have another burning question? Actually it just may have something to do with “fear”.

This:

 Quote: kelly byrd

Handler had to come to the dogs side to out her. Normally SPITS the sleeve on the out.

And in Ana’s videos, the gentleman “yelled” out from across the field 3 times. It took time but he made his way up to his dog, still latched onto the “blue” decoy, “outed” once and the dog obeyed perfectly.

I know these dogs can hear the command from across the field. The camera was right there on the dog and I could clearly hear the "outs" in the background. The dog and decoy didn't seem to be making enough noise not to hear it.

So the dog knows the command is happening, knows what to do (he performed it beautifully earlier with his perfect score). Why do they blow off the command when it’s coming from a distance and then have no problem “outing” when the handler is right there? Is this some sort of distance confidence or close proximity fear?

Hahaha, we can't smack our dogs upside the head from across the field....

(totally joking, but in all seriousness, it's the distance factor.) You can recall your dog easily from 10', but at 100' they hesitate... they know you can't MAKE them do it.

Totally simplified, but that the gist of it, IMO.