Quote: Connie Sutherland

Yes, a real person.

I like Burn Notice too.

Ah, then it will make sense to you that I read his posts and kept picturing Hawaiian shirts and mojitos. Sure made things even more interesting LOL

Mr. Finley,

I'm not an expert by any means, but I feel that we must look at these "definitions" not as black and white, but as a sliding scale.

Genetics is NOT black and white.

I think most people would define a working line as a dog who both 1) had a series of ancestors who were selectively bred for traits that would HELP (not guarantee) them excel in physically and mentally demanding tasks while 2) at the same time demonstrating their ability to successfully compete/ excel in these physically and mentally demanding tasks (which depend on the breed).

I think this is reasonable. Anyone else feel free to chime and correct me.

I should also mention that, as others have said, genetics can be a good INDICATOR of ability to succeed. Is it a guarantee? Of course not. We mustn't take things too literally and too black and white...

A dog from show lines (ie a dog whose ancestors were bred primarily for conformation) can do WORK, depending on his training and genetics. It's a combination, not a destiny.

 Quote: Charles Finley

No one has told me as yet how to define a "working" or "show" line dog. I think the reason is that it is purely arbitrary and not based on any science other than personal preference.

Goll dern it, chuck. I dun been ponderin this fer quite a while now. Neer as I can tell from this here video, a workin dog is the one that won't bring that dang ball back when ya throws it and poops in the bushes, that ways you wont trip on one or step in the other. I got some more ponderin to do over show.

http://vimeo.com/101648004

Dang Steve you are a trip!

Seemed pretty basic till I read your post Steve post.

One line was bred to work and one line was bred to show.

Occasionally one can do both but rarely do both well.

It's all about breeding for certain expectations based on family lines

Sometimes neither line can do anything but make a good pet.

Sometime neither are even worth feeding.

Visual comparison

Working lines weren't bred to stand on their hocks like many show line dogs.

Show line dogs......can't jump worth a dern or walk without a wobble with those overangulated rear legs.

....... Did I say that with my outloud voice?

Hey, Steve;

Wouldn't a working line dog be able to bring out some ball drive in the handler? Well, if not, maybe he can get the handler to come over here in the shade...

The problem with that Duane, besides the working dogs, I imagine the farm animals, especially bulls, deposit a fair amount of their 'waste' in that shade. I'm convinced Charles has spent enough time in that particular kind of shade though, so much so that he's right up to his head cam in it.

 Quote: Charles Finley

No one has told me as yet how to define a "working" or "show" line dog. I think the reason is that it is purely arbitrary and not based on any science other than personal preference.

Scientific study

Oh, well... So much for that theory.

I would like to add that I've been to the WUSV World Championship Put on by the United Schutzhund Cllubs of America.

I've also been to the SV Sieger Nationals where the show dogs have to perform a protection routing in order to qualify for the sow ring in order to become a Champion show dog.

NIGHT AND DAY in both looks, structure and performance.
The ONE show line dog in the World Schutzhund Championships showed its true over the 1 meter hurdle. Flat out clumsy.
That dog was shown by a world renown handler/trainer from Bulgaria. He also is well known in the USA where he resides now. I think he has done a great job with the show line dog but it wasn't up to the abilities of his working line dogs, GSDs OR Mals.

In the SV show thee were aprox 160 dogs entered. After watching the "protection" routing I can honestly say there were only 5-6 dogs I would take home. So called Sch III dogs that ran from the helper, refused to engage, you name it.

In conclusion, I've seen with my own two eyes the HUGE difference between working and show lines.

I've also personally seen this difference in show and working line terriers, Border Collies, Australian Shepherds, Irish Setters, and many other "breeds".

With terriers I've personally competed in both conformation shows and working terrier shows. I've had dogs that could cross over that show/working line but it's definitely not the norm.

is any competition sport eg IPO, agility....work??