CJ some of the SCH dogs know when they are in a trial and you can't make a correction. for example our K9 unit demo's at the state fair. first demo perfect. then they learn real quick you don't want to make a correction in front of people. dogs will drive you crazy. i have lost more sleep trying to work out a problem and go check on the dog he's sound asleep.doesn't bother him....

Hee hee… smart buggers aren’t they.

So kind of like a ring wise thing. I thought it might be pretty simple but also with the inconsistency, that it may be some kind of complicated drive thing.

I guess simply, if Vince is out and about and he can hear me, I can ask him to sit or down from quite a distance. He knows it and does it (we’re well on our way to that “no independent thoughts”, mom’s ALWAYS right thing :grin I can even call him off a ball chase if I’ve got the heart - he just looks so disappointed and confused (you’d have to know him), I have to send him right back out.

So as Kelly says, them knowing this ability to “smack them” would be a fear, or let’s call it a “close” respect thing. Perfect dog like the one Ana posted, with that almost perfect predictability because of perfect training - is that him feeling more confident on "this day" to disrespect what he knows, his ability to handle the hammer coming down (or not) and not caring because of this particular desire to bite? He knows and is titled in this yet choosing to totally think independently, unpredictably?

OMG, I’m making my head spin – he’s just having an off day right?

See Betty, I said your question was one I’d pondered many times too. And these incredibly trained, highly titled dogs refusing to “out” totally has me intrigued as well. I just couldn’t help myself and now I’m totally hoarding your thread. I promise, I will stop now and go sit in my corner.

 Quote: cj barrett

Hee hee… smart buggers aren’t they.
Perfect dog like the one Ana posted, with that almost perfect predictability because of perfect training - is that him feeling more confident on "this day" to disrespect what he knows, his ability to handle the hammer coming down (or not) and not caring because of this particular desire to bite? He knows and is titled in this yet choosing to totally think independently, unpredictably?

OMG, I’m making my head spin – he’s just having an off day right?

I promise, I will stop now and go sit in my corner.

It could have been ANYTHING. The dog picking up on handler nerves/stress, a vibe from the decoy, a tummy ache... lol. As much as we train, and as much as we try and program these dogs to do what we say, every dang time.... they are still animals, and have independent thoughts!

Geeze CJ. Go sit in a corner already.

Yeah, yeah… I’m there.

But, but…I was just of the mind that if I could completely program Vince (you know train) for that perfect predictability like (in my mind) those “perfect” Schutzhund dogs, (less the bite work of course) we’d have ‘er whooped.

You can imagine my disappointment when I found out some of these highly titled dogs actually don’t “out” when asked.

Okay, glasses once again completely cleared, butt planted firmly in the corner.

Cj your being to hard on yourself it dog training not rocket science although some try to make it out to be, the below link to the scores to the awma national championships great trainers different methods my point being no one has a perfect 300 points they all make a mistake dog or handler.

http://www.2011awmanationals.com/results.html


CJ, you dog has a issue w/protection ? why? A few months ago i received a call from a police officer w/a DS he was being dropped from a k9 class run by a state agency his dog would not track (lol i never seen a dog that wouldn't) 30 days later they were tracking a sch2 track . they are more than one way to go about training i didn't mean to brag i just think we give up to easy. maybe he wont make sch but you and he could still have fun building his confidence I won high in trial SCH 1 with a dog people didn't think was any good.. never quit.. Mr Frawley added a 100+ free video's mostly old dog trials fun to watch

CJ i reread your posts about Vince appears to be a handful with the correct decoy and time you could have fun working him

Your last post there is probably the most encouraging words my ears have heard in relation to this dog. Truly a dream.... however the reality of my best friend quickly sets in.

John, my dog’s got a strange way of looking life. He does not like people. He has a small circle of folks he will tolerate, barely. He respects (I’ll even go so far as say worships) me. I would trust this dog, if he was scared shitless and hadn’t eaten for a month, not to bite me. He adores my husband because he’s fun and lives very comfortably with him, but doesn’t respect him. Hubby doesn’t get the pearly whites anymore, but it’s under the surface.

I posted a few examples of his behavior and have many more, but rather than throw a bunch out there, if there’s any specific situational behavior you’re interested I’d be happy to provide my experience with him regarding it.

As you may have noticed from my previous posts on this thread, yes I’m trying to get into this little monkey’s head. I really, really like him. He is almost the perfect dog, to me, with me, for me…. with the exception that he gets a focused desire to lash out, unpredictably (well I can pretty much predict it now) with extreme intensity and intent to do harm.

Like a rattlesnake, lightening fast. Eye contact sets him off and god forbid someone tries to touch him – doesn’t matter what kind of person. Men, women, young, old. He just does not like people.

I have had a few dogs over the years and done quite a bit of rehab with rescues. As I believed and has been assessed, he’s a pretty classic fear biter. The unsympathetic and downside with him, as most see it, is that he’s 105 lbs. He has an ability to do some damage if I was ever to let down my guard at any given time.

This is just a brief overview of the bad stuff. Was actually a little tough to type but you asked and I’m not one to sugar coat the truth.

You’re going to have to give me a couple of days if you want to go the other way though, and that might not even do it because the internet probably doesn’t have enough band width to begin documenting the good stuff.

And thanks for the heads up on those videos. As soon as I can get a couple more days off, I plan on getting fully obsorbed in them. You better start brushing up on that typing, something tells me I’m gonna have a few questions.

I don' think there is anything fundamentally wrong with Vince, unless he does that to create an opening to run away from what he sees as a threat. He is doing what is in his blood. A few human generations back, they expected that out of a dog. JMO

I agree with Ramachandran I have handled dog's like Vince . First he doesn't have to like people just tolerate them. i don't let anyone pet my dog. you want to pet him... buy him,then you can pet him all you want.lol. I had a service mal just like him.i had to be careful how far I pushed him. You work around it. IMO with a dog like Vince strict ob is a must. you have to be careful. If you are uncomfortable put him in a muzzle. a dog like him means business, so sit means sit and don't move until i tell you.. Without seeing him, it's only a guess. he is serious it's not a game he want's to hurt people. trained correctly a fun dog.. if not dangerous . dog training is not about just training the easy one's it's about helping the tough ones...

Ram… I think I could hug you. I wonder how much a plane ticket to India is?

When I came home tonight and read this it almost brought tears to my eyes (busy evening - I had to keep it together). But I thought wow, he totally gets it.

 Quote: ramachandran subramanian

I don' think there is anything fundamentally wrong with Vince,

I so wholeheartedly believe this and my vet has confirmed the physical. And mentally, psychologically (whatever you want to call it) I get to see a much different dog than most. I don’t talk about him much because I do hear what people say - she’s got that dangerous dog, you can’t go near it, no one should have an animal like that… blah, blah blah. At least they’re finally listening, I guess.

Our society... Ram, you speak of time (and perhaps there are still places) when dogs were respected for what they were. People lived with (and I’m sure loved) them then, just differently. We’ve come to a place where if they don’t fit perfectly into someone’s pie-in-sky definition of socially acceptable, they should be destroyed. How dare someone put their energy and attention into a animal like that, after all, I’ll probably never get a chance to pet it, what good could they possibly be.

It seems people often can’t see past their own ideal worlds, adjusting their own behavior to allow to live and let live. And this is why I felt the protection sports world would be a good place for him. They just seem to be a different caliber of people. The type I felt Vince and I would fit into quite nicely.

Unfortunately, or more fortunately I suppose and understandably so, there is some fairly strict criteria in this world as well. A human aggressive dog is not a good fit. We tried and didn’t get a chance.

But I’m not saying this as any type of criticism or in a bad way at all. I totally get it. With the little bit of exposure we got, I also found out that Vince was really not having a good time. Had I got him as a pup, and knew what I’ve learned from all the incredible people I’ve met along this journey so far (not to mention what Vince has taught me) I think our world would be much different right now.

He’s 3 now and has come a long way from the confused, vibrating 10 month old I brought home. There are a few clubs in our province but all a good 4 and 5 hours away. I travelled 9 just for an assessment and if it was in the cards, I’m sure I could make it work.

However, I fear their criteria will be much the same as what I’ve already come to understand. We’re not going to be shaking hands with the TD twice if he happens to glance down at him right now. When he’s good and ready though (and we may be talking his senior years) I plan on getting him tested for the BH through one of these clubs.

It’s all good though. I truly believe that we are exactly where we should be. The time will come when he gets to shine, in his own way. And if it ends up only him and I, standing on the top of a mountain, instead of a podium, well I couldn’t think of a better soul to be doing it with.

But John, if you want to send me the directions to that cemetery and you’ve got a bit more than a “dead” beat in mind for Vince to "play" with, it might be worth giving it another shot. Just kidding of course, (well sort of) but it sure is a fun thought - one I put behind us a long time ago. Thank you for that.

And guys, thank you both so much for your incredible insight and all the encouragement. You can’t begin to imagine what your words have meant to me.