Yes, Peter, but this discussion is about the validity of 'working' line bred dogs vs 'show' line bred dogs. Ie. one bred selectively based on ability, the other bred selectively based on conformation.
ETA: calling it a discussion may be generous.

Edited by Kristin Muntz (08/28/2014 07:24 AM)
Edit reason: added.

 Quote: Kristin Muntz

...this discussion is about the validity of 'working' line bred dogs vs 'show' line bred dogs. Ie. one bred selectively based on ability, the other bred selectively based on conformation.
ETA: calling it a discussion may be generous.

ok now you will have to define validity and ability;



validity

http://www.google.com.au/#q=validity+definition&safe=active


/vəˈlɪdɪti/


noun

noun: validity; plural noun: validities

the quality of being logically or factually sound; soundness or cogency.

synonyms: soundness, reasonableness, rationality, logic, justifiability, defensibility, sustainability, plausibility, viability, bona fides, effectiveness, cogency, power, credibility, believability, force, strength, weight, foundation, substance, substantiality, authority, reliability
"it is time to examine the validity of this argument"

synonyms: legal acceptability, authenticity, correctness, bona fides, genuineness;


ability to do what, judged by who, what criteria;


you will get as many different answers and versions to you theory as there are people that own dogs, a number bigger than a few bazillions.

Which is why thankfully, not all dog owners breed.
Are the terms I used out of place here?

Working dogs are normally bred for specific work. You don't usually ask a standard poodle to herd. You don't ask a Papillon to do bitework. So asking what 'working' is really depends on the dog, does it not?

The OP does not believe there is any difference between working lines and show lines of specific breeds and was asking for some form of proof and kept moving the goal posts.

Ahhh, contrer. Most casual dog owners could care less about this debate.

The discussion was started by a Mr. Finley, who, on multiple forums, has a habit of trolling those who would make the distinction between working and show line GSDs. It appears to be a cover for his own indiscriminate breeding program.

Many, if not most, experienced sport and working trainer/handlers recognize the distinction between the lines. Selective breeding has progressed the distinction to the point that there is a difference in the genetics between them (see the study I linked previously). Because the showlines feature overangulation of the hips, many consider the "ability" of the working line shepherd to be greater than that of the show line.

After watching the Westminster shows last year, a friend of mine asked why the GSDs did not look like mine. Even a novice can spot the difference.

As far as "validity" is concerned...
If you're referring to the validity of the argument, genetic science lends plauseability and believability to the argument.

If you're referring to the validity of the working line vs. show line, most handlers would acknowledge that the working line is more sound and sustainable in his structure, making him more able to do real work or sport.

If you're referring to the validity of the selective breeding that has created the distinction, that is sustainable because of the efforts of breeders who brought the breed this far, and will seek to preserve it going forward and into the future.

you would have to ask Kristin what she means by validity, I would not use the word without a whole lot of unambiguous context surrounding it.


I must say I do hear show folks boasting of the hard work their dogs put in doing the flying trots for extended periods.

to be honest they have a point that does take a dog considerable effort to be that up multiple times and sustain it over and over in an event.

not saying I agree but is that "valid' in that context?

That would bring me back to your question: How do you define "work"?

Can a working line GSD do the "work" of a showline GSD? For how long?

Can a showline GSD do the "work" that a working or sport dog does? For how long?

Which argument is sustainable?

Nevermind the dogs of either line. The point is the opinion of a 'breeder' of working line dogs that doesnt do anything beyond his own back yard while declaring titles mean nothing, unless of course he's trying to sell and or give some credibility to the unproven dogs he's bought or bred, then being an Orry, who is titled son is all anyone needs to know, that's what has no validity.

Go debate that with yourself Peter.

duplicate

Touche

Touche??


"Go debate that with yourself Peter. "

why the rudeness, everyone is supposed to agree with you?

Orry?, breeder? you are not referring to me right?

"Can a working line GSD do the "work" of a showline GSD? For how long?

Can a showline GSD do the "work" that a working or sport dog does? For how long?"

precisely, I doubt many (some do) wl's have the structure to do a flying trot at all let alone multiple times over a duration, is that work??

only sense I make of all this since nobody is herding sheep with their GSD for a living what's valid and what's able is entirely venue specific, really who can even say what the modern GSD is with any validity, the akc judge, the sv judge, the ipo judge, the guy who certifies SAR dogs....who exactly?

please no excerpts from the "creators" book...