Here's a video I made a few weeks ago. This is round 3 of using the same toys.
What I do is switch up the toys until he gets tired of them, do a short training sessions, again toys, again training session and keep doing that until it's time to leave.

You can see that he's not too excited about any of them and I'm surprised he took the tug at all.

I posted this at the other board and got some suggestions and have some improvement but I'm still having a problem keeping him engaged the entire time we are out.

I don't have the imagination to come up with enough exciting things.
Any ideas for engagement are appreciated. I will research it tomorrow, on our way out now. I just figured maybe someone has a good idea that worked for them


http://youtu.be/YrDViUSluIE

Engagement is a behaviour I train , just like sit or down or retrieve.

It needs to be trained in little increments.

You can use premack rewards if your dog does not want to take the tug. But let him access the premack reward after he tugs. Slowly the tug will become high value in the presence of distractions.

I will research premack.

But what do you mean that engagement is a behavior you train? Can you explain how you do that?
I thought engagement is a way to make them want to work with us, making us exciting for them.

Did I misunderstand that as well?


On another note, thank you, Connie!!!!! I don't know which part of your posts clicked but I actually had an amazing short training session. I think it was the upbeat part that sunk in.

Anyhow, thank you!!!! I'm getting excited, I'm starting to believe that this can be done

I think Steve and Connie are hitting all the right nails with their comments.
After going over this whole thread I caught something you said about the sniffing when you give a sit command at the door.
Often times a dog sniffing around when your trying to work is a stress reliever for the dog. He's not ignoring you, he's quite possibly stressed due to confusion.
I'm thinking that because of the things that Steve has hit on.
Your running with the pinch so as not to hurt the dog is way off.
I also agree with Steve that formal OB training and basic house manners are different. I have absolutely no problems scruffing a puppy if it's being a PIA in every day activities around the house.

What I mean to say is, you cannot wave a toy or food in front of the dog and expect the dog to take it, Of course there are some dogs that are super driven and crazy for toys. Then again we have some dogs that are not so driven.

So what I do is , even the attention and focus part from the dog , I train it in small increments and do not leave it for the dog to decide.

Premack reward is to let the dog do what ever he wants to do at that point in time, so I tell him , if he plays with me even for 3 seconds, he can go and check out the distraction, to access the premack reward, he plays more and more vigourously, because at the end of the behaviour chain he gets his reinforcement.

What this does is, it reinforces all the behaviours that are inbetween the start point and the reward. i.e. the behaviour itself becomes reinforcing. i.e. he did not think of the tug as high value , but because the distraction is high value ...eventually that value bleeds into the tug too.

Plus he had the toy on the bullwhip in his mouth , i would have started tugging with that instead of offering a new toy .

Training dogs is very satisfying because it is a mind game between you and your dog. You do it ever so slightly each day, but in a few months you will see how his mind works and then you can make some serious progress.

Important bit of advice I wish some had given me when I started out is this : " At the beginning it may seem like you are not making progress and it may seem like you are not getting it done. Just stay calm and consistent, Let your dog dictate the pace of the training, and always let science guide you" .

I have made many mistakes for which I am paying a heavy price now. I have ruined one of my 4 dogs by being over demanding in the beginning. I am not saying that you are like that, just a general word of caution. It is very difficult to ruin a dog by going slow, but very easy to do that by rushing through.

SO just take it easy and take what he can give you and have a great time.

Remember that a good trainer is never afraid to go back , drop the criteria , regress in training to fix the problems (s)he finds.

If your dog can learn only "x" on a particular day , then teach him just "0.80x" . Always keep the dog winning.

Ram you've came a long way since you started here! Kudos!

can someone please answer this?

what's the theory behind the dog "knowing the command"?


is it that the same command at every new place is a new command? if so, then the dog never truly learns the command. 5 years from now i take him to a place he's never been to and tell him to SIT and he won't know what i want.

or is it that after a certain number of new places he learns that the command applies to all places? if so, then "how many new places does it take?"

 Quote: Bob Scott

After going over this whole thread I caught something you said about the sniffing when you give a sit command at the door.
Often times a dog sniffing around when your trying to work is a stress reliever for the dog. He's not ignoring you, he's quite possibly stressed due to confusion.

first of all, so if the sniffing is not ignoring me then how should it be addressed? but this is an abstract question, not pertaining to the SIT BY THE DOOR situation because

second of all, i'm not having a problem with it anymore. now that it's been explained to me that it's ok for the dog to not comply in the proofing stage and that i shouldn't expect that he knows it i started from scratch and realized a few things.
i was so stuck on not repeating the command (the whole you never let a dog get away with not complying) that i got annoyed when he didn't listen and i'm sure he sensed that and it didn't help anything.
not only that, the times he did listen i not only didn't mark every time but didn't even praise every time. i was acting like he owed it to me.

so now when he does sit i'm all happy, praising and marking. if he doesn't - i just repeat it again and write it off to distractions but so far he sits almost every time.

 Quote: Bob Scott

Your running with the pinch so as not to hurt the dog is way off.

lol, i know but what do i do? i can't see him choke.
and is loose leash walking obedience or manners (as Steve put it) and should it be corrected? i will post something about loose leash walking in the other thread.

 Quote: Bob Scott

I also agree with Steve that formal OB training and basic house manners are different. I have absolutely no problems scruffing a puppy if it's being a PIA in every day activities around the house.

ok, just wanted to make sure that i was correct for popping him for the cat chasing

 Quote:

Premack reward is to let the dog do what ever he wants to do at that point in time, so I tell him , if he plays with me even for 3 seconds, he can go and check out the distraction, to access the premack reward, he plays more and more vigourously, because at the end of the behaviour chain he gets his reinforcement.

This is an interesting concept. I'd love to try it out.

But how do I tell my dog that for 3 seconds of engagement he will get to smell the grass?

 Quote:

Plus he had the toy on the bullwhip in his mouth , i would have started tugging with that instead of offering a new toy .

I didn't because I always try (not successfully but the thought is there and so I sometimes make stupid decisions because I'm trying to follow some rule) to leave him wanting more. So I thought that taking it out of his mouth would make him be excited for it in round 4 (that came after the video lol).

Also, since then the flirt has a new ending, pictured below.


And lately I've been doing just that, tugging with that toy and I have a new problem.
First of all, he almost doesn't bite at all. He bites OK on the balls but if I want to hold the balls and tug while he has the middle in his mouth he will just keep almost chewing on it over and over.

And second problem might be part of first. He doesn't tug, he almost pushes into me while rebiting endlessly.

He's not as bad with the regular tug but still, he doesn't just bite and hold, he's always rebiting and catching my hands in the process.

 Quote:

Training dogs is very satisfying because it is a mind game between you and your dog. You do it ever so slightly each day, but in a few months you will see how his mind works and then you can make some serious progress.

Yes, that's the reason for the 1000 questions. I don't understand how he thinks and therefore I don't understand how the techniques are supposed to work and don't believe it will work.
If I don't believe in a technique I can't successfully implement it. I must have faith in what I'm doing and have a goal in sight. I can't do meaningless work.

 Quote:

Important bit of advice I wish some had given me when I started out is this : " At the beginning it may seem like you are not making progress and it may seem like you are not getting it done. Just stay calm and consistent, Let your dog dictate the pace of the training, and always let science guide you" .

Yes, this is definitely me. I can't help but to feel that we are soo far behind, especially reading about all these dogs that are perfectly trained by 9 months. And I start getting discouraged and feeling like it's never going to work

I then start rushing the process.
I realize all this but it's so hard to be patient when I see that other people have accomplished so much more by this age.

I will try being mindful of this.

 Quote:

I have made many mistakes for which I am paying a heavy price now. I have ruined one of my 4 dogs by being over demanding in the beginning. I am not saying that you are like that, just a general word of caution. It is very difficult to ruin a dog by going slow, but very easy to do that by rushing through.

How is he ruined? Is there not a way to fix it? I thought with marker training you can take any dog at any stage of life and any background and start over and have a good dog?

 Quote:

Remember that a good trainer is never afraid to go back , drop the criteria , regress in training to fix the problems (s)he finds.

I do remember that in theory but it's so hard to drop everything even if it seems like you're making progress and go back a few steps. I can't help but to want to rush and cut corners.

I'm working on myself.

 Quote:

If your dog can learn only "x" on a particular day , then teach him just "0.80x" . Always keep the dog winning.

It takes lots of talent or experience to be able to tell when your dog is reaching his limit and stop well before.

I do know this concept and I try to follow it but I'm always having problems with it. I can't tell when he's just starting to give out. I usually notice it once he gives out.

 Quote: Natalie Rynda

1) first of all, so if the sniffing is not ignoring me then how should it be addressed? but this is an abstract question, not pertaining to the SIT BY THE DOOR situation because

2) if he doesn't - i just repeat it again and write it off to distractions but so far he sits almost every time.


3) and is loose leash walking obedience or manners (as Steve put it) and should it be corrected? i will post something about loose leash walking in the other thread.


4) ok, just wanted to make sure that i was correct for popping him for the cat chasing

1) Sniffing, looking away, yawning, stretching, lip licking, whale eye etc are symptoms of stress and are called calming signals. it helps the dog calm himself down and he is trying to calm you too . If he is showing calming signals, it is time to pick up on the fun and games bit. Just work on de-stressing him . You can see in this video that my dog was in no mood to work with me on that day. So I dropped my plan (temporarily) and worked on lifting his mood. You can see that after just 2 minutes of play he is willing to work.

PLAY LIFTS SADHA'S MOOD

In this video you can see how the tug play made the food more reinforcing. The dog that spat out the treats a few minutes back , now actively seeks the food after playing. You can also see him ignoring my cue "touch" because he is distracted by the food on the floor. If I had corrected him for that the session would have abruptly ended.


2) If he doesn't obey your command, you have a few options (a) If you have some thing he really wants then just shut off and walk away . The thing he wants may be a cookie, a ball or to open the door (b) Just stand still like a statue frozen for 20 seconds (no eye contact, no emotions) and try again (c) Do not give the command in the place where he disobeyed and take him back to where he obeyed and do it like 50 times and come back here and try

3) I would frame the question differently . How are you rewarding him for the times he is NOT pulling on the leash. If there is no incentive for him to not pull , then he will pull.

4) I agree , I punish my dogs for unwanted aggression. I also use a scolding word (BAD BOY / BAD GIRL) in a harsh tone before the physical punishment . After a few weeks , just the scolding itself gets the job done.