My showline is training to be an accountant. Whenever a bill comes in the mail he knows exactly what to do with it.

I have learnd a great amount from this post.
What i can see is that maybe there are 3 directions for the GSD line.
WL/SL/ and what looks to be the Showline with better Work Ability.
At our Schutzhund Club we had 9 world Teams in for worlds for whole week. It was interesting talking with them a little about this very subject, and there opinions were as diverse on the subject as they are here. A lot of them own showlines and work them. I work my showline every day, and i enjoy it. I had K. Hastings work my dog
and he was impressed and he wasnt on the payroll when he gave his opinion.I love both WL and SL but for me the dog has to have workability, of what degree that would be up the breeders.

The aim for most workingdog breeders aren´t to provide the general public with pretty dogs used as pets, if a potential owner has no intresst in a GSD except as a pretty pet, then they better get another breed more suitable. Better save the working GSD for those people really wanting such a dog.

Top


I agree with and understand what you are saying. But part of this discussion has been whether or not showline dogs should be bred. Some have stated that many if not most people are realistically looking for "pets". Some people here are saying workingline dogs make better pets. Not all workingline dogs are created equal. and the big arguement is how the breed has seen such a divide/split. Working lines or showlines. So if the working line is a true GSD, and not all of them are great working prospects, and realistically most people are looking for pets...why not provide..the better pet/dog. and again, I am not saying mass produce. but it seems obvious to me that this is what would help the breed. Help it regain its stature. Help it from continuing to produce animals with health problems, etc etc tc. You're absolutely right. A GSD is Not for everybody.

I also agree that the show K-9 can hopefully re-educate the public. But honestly, not everybody is going to watch that show. It's a good start though. (on the down side of that, you don't want mr/mrs joe public to think, hey , those sable GSD's look tough! I should go out and grab one at my nearest breeder. That would essentially put the working lines in jeaopardy as well. Forcing breeders to be even more selective of who they give puppies to and what kind of puppy to give them.)

Again, this is just my newbie opinion. in the end, I trust all of your judgement, I just thought it was some worthwhile food for thought.

Most people intressted in a working GSD aren´t looking for a pet, and many breeders aren´t intressted to sell to people if that is the only use of the dog. You don´t have to be a K9-handler or highly into sports, but if the dog is going to just be a pet and no
training activity whatsoever, then there is of course no reason to have a workingdog.

And no, there is no reason to breed to showlines if workingdogs are the main aim.

Steve when I wrote. "They do nothing to dismiss the fact that working abilities in dog populations diminish if not tested and selected for, and that what is selected for in the conformation show ring isn't working abilities." You replied that the same could be said of working line owners as most end up as pets i.e., not working. You will admit for one reason or another, that most of the results of a working GSD breeding are not suitable for work that involves protection or street work. That is, some of their drives are lacking or their work ethic is not what it should be. What should be done with those dogs? Many such dogs are a part of the Seeing Eye program or other assistant dogs programs. They probably have good nerves and character because a very large part of their pedigree did as those qualities are selected in all working breedings, but as the old saying goes the best laid plans etc. Those are the pups that should be pets. It is up to the breeder to make every effort never to put a pup or dog in a situation that it can’t handle or better yet, never put a dog in a situation that it doesn’t look forward to being in. It is true most don’t train but it is also true most dogs can’t hold up to the rigors of that training. I just sold such a pup that IMO could not. He was a great biddable companion but just didn’t have it. If you want to see some of his obedience work go to YouTube and in the search block put in normandavidepstein and you will see four videos of him titled “Dap”. His new owners are very happy as they have been through four other dogs that would be good with their children, without success that is until Dap.

Again I understand and agree. My point is to better the breed. To help save the GSD for what it is, a working dog. I could be wrong but that seems to be the theme of the discussion here. Please don't take what I'm saying as an arguement with you. I agree. A GSD is a working dog. However everywhere I read about them, it is stated that in the US and UK, the GSD is always in the top 5 in most popular dog breed. Don't we want the GSD to be a healthy, strong breed? No not everyone should own a GSD. Most of those people who make up that top 5 rating probably shouldn't own one. But they do. and they will continue to go for showlines. Why? Because the showlines are more prevalent. If you look at the newspaper, websites, breeders lists, MANY of them are showline dogs. If you don't mind people owning showline dogs and breeders breeding showline dogs then thats ok. but if that is the case, you can't argue that showline dogs shouldn't be bred. If you do have a problem with it, and you believe showline dogs shouldn't be bred, then you have a dilemma. People still want German Shepherd Dogs. They probably always will. If you don't want the showlines to thrive and continue their bad breedings (To those showline supporters, I'm not saying that all showline dogs are bad) then you have to do something about it.

Stig, the above was just to clarify my opinion. I actually think that what you said hits the topic right on the nail. I couldn't say it better or put it simpler myself.

I mean showline dogs have nothing to offer to those who breeds GSDs for working. That many people breeds and wants showlines, or breed dogs for whatever reason, is nothing we can change. It´s upp to breedclubs and all those breeders/buyers that does so to change the focus of their breedinggoals. But most dogowners wants pets today, so naturally those breeding for work will be in the minority.

Norman,
Again, I agree with what you are saying in part, but, you are thinking in an ideal world also. In that world only WL GSD's are bred and those that can not work are offered up to Mr. and Mrs. Hunky Dory who take them home as pets.
In the real world people are breeding WL dogs to be pets. They like to tell you how happy they are that the dog is going to a "working" home when, in fact, they are not going to working homes. They are going in to homes to be pets. This has been my point all along. I feel that WL breeders who are breeding pets are diminishing this breed as much, if not more, than those who are breeding SL GSD's. I have stated this as such in prior posts.
As for Dap. You did a great job of training that dog. That is why the dog is working out for them. If you had not he would not have worked out for them either. Can you really tell me that the four prior dogs were trained as well as Dap, but, were SL dogs and therefore they did not make great pets for these people?
These people obviously know nothing about training or raising dogs. I can see one or two being tough, but, four, c'mon.
In nine years of rescuing dogs, (mostly GSD's, GSD mixes, and Rotties, and Pit Bull/AmStaff's) I have only had two dogs returned to me. The reason for the success rate is that I train (and raise) the dogs properly so that they can live in homes and not be problems for the new owners. I also stay involved with these people and their dogs so that when or if a situation arises that they may not be 100% capable of handling, or know what to do, I am there to help them solve the issue. My guess is that you are the same.

Steve maybe I ought to get out more as all of the working line GSD breeders are trying to breed for work. That said I don’t know what the preponderance of working line breeders are breeding for and I dare say you don’t either. That said lets in this instance agree to disagree. On another subject, are you going to the Schutzhund USA National’s at Triple Crown in November? If you are would like to meet up and chew the fat and I have several friends that are competing that I’m sure you’d like to meet. Norman

Norman,
Unfortunately my 9 yr old Slovak female is too old to really compete anymore, but, she has already more than proved herself. My two year old is not ready yet, but, hopefully soon.

I am planning on going as a spectator. I would love to meet up and talk. It is always good to meet people around the country who are involved the way you are. I really liked your web site and what you do with your dogs. I'll pm you with info so we can meet.
Have a great one!
--Steve