 Re: Pack Leader or Predator
[Re: Aaron Myracle ]
#241353 - 05/26/2009 10:57 PM |
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kinky....
whos the papa wolf???grrrrrrr......
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Re: Pack Leader or Predator
[Re: Mallory Kwiatkowski ]
#241355 - 05/26/2009 10:59 PM |
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 Re: Pack Leader or Predator
[Re: randy allen ]
#241356 - 05/26/2009 11:07 PM |
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Reg: 01-25-2003
Posts: 5983
Loc: Idaho
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Engery,
Ugh, I wish I had more of it for this discussion.
LCK, because YOU had be convinced by some 'experts' does not make YOU any kind of expert. You can drop all the names you like around here you like, the more knowledgeable people here will tell you it's ALL very old news. No matter what kind of new wave mumbo jumbo you want to cloak it in, it's very old news.
Wolf packs, or the canine pack structure is more nuanced then was figured in 50's and 60's, big revelation. Some of us who lived and trained dogs in the 70's remember those theories and even tried them for a short while, and when I say short for my part I mean short lived. In the end though, my golly, as you admited there must be a teacher or naturally charismatic ONE that all others just follow. Hmmmmm, what could that mean I wonder?
That you stake so much on this business on a wolf that cornering something 4 or 5 times it's size and weight and doesn't go in for the kill absolutely amazes me. Here, I'll explain it in simple terms for you: the animal is holding the soon to be food for the rest of the pack, otherwise there will be no food today and our best hunter will not be able to hunt tomorrow. That make sense in the big scope of 'pack' Mr. Kelly?
Now I don't know how many working dogs you've met and decided they were just really scared because you stood taller then them but I hope for your sake not many. The dogs we here at Leerburg keep are mostly from the herding guardian group, they are bred to stand stalwart against the odds, it's in their hard wiring, and we accent that with training and support. I dare you try to buffalo one of these dogs. So I'm not going to do any more entertaining your clap trap about taller than thou.
I'm with Steve, big discovery.........play with, and enjoy life with your dog. Yohoo
Ya know what I think? I think it's people like you Mr. Kelly that keeps this very old concept of pack mentality alive more than anyone else, and also I think you do it consciencely, just for your own pocketbook.
Randy
With that said Randy, nothing else really needs to be said as you hit the nail squarely on the head.
CM puts his money where his mouth is, and is justifiably famous for doing a good job. Is it any surprise that some wannabe with questionable experience ( if any ) wants to snipe at the big, successful name guy?
And Mr. Kelly, you're here with a lot of the pros now, people that have trained more dogs than you've ever dreamed of - we just don't have time to make a pretty blog about....because we're busy training.
So posting *crap* that you can't back up doesn't impress anyone here.
Those that can *do* - and you don't appear to be one of them.
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Re: Pack Leader or Predator
[Re: Aaron Myracle ]
#241400 - 05/27/2009 08:22 AM |
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Reg: 09-03-2007
Posts: 221
Loc: Cincinnati, OH
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Lee, how many dogs have you titled?
I'd like to know this too. I understand that titles aren't the be-all end-all any more than a college diploma is a statement of how smart you are. However, it is a measure of success and dedication.
I'm reminded of Mr. Miagi's opinion of Karate belts in "The Karate Kid". He didn't believe in them and just arbitrarily handed his student a black belt. It was funny in the film, but even still they entered a tournament a competed to demonstrate their level of skill.
Similarly, it seems like anyone who considers themselves a professional dog trainer should have titled dogs. Not necessarily only Schutzhund, but really any sport: obedience, agility, rally, whatever. Anything less is disingenuous and is hiding behind rhetoric. The proof is in the pudding.
Edited to add: However, I am disappointed at the tendency to let a discussion devolve into name calling and ad hominem arguments. I guess that's just the way of the internet. 
Edited by Doug Alcorn (05/27/2009 08:24 AM)
Edit reason: comment on name calling
 Suzzie, the Australian Shepherd |
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Re: Pack Leader or Predator
[Re: Doug Alcorn ]
#241410 - 05/27/2009 09:26 AM |
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... Edited to add: However, I am disappointed at the tendency to let a discussion devolve into name calling and ad hominem arguments.
Flat-out lying will do that .... I think that "revising" and then lying about the first draft taints the whole thread, regardless of how silly the lie.
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Re: Pack Leader or Predator
[Re: Doug Alcorn ]
#241413 - 05/27/2009 09:36 AM |
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Doug,
Sorry you feel thats what it has been reduced to.
Really though, this is the kind of stuff that starts happening when one wants to talk about canine pack dynamics couched in terms like fluxating magnetic polarities and birds swelling in song. Kelly's opinions are so filled with that kind of tripe, I don't even know what his position on anything is, maybe if I could score some pyote it might make some sense for at least a few hours.
And he dares calls my writing unintelligable.
All of it can be avoiding by talking about pack dynamics using the good old classical terms of Alpha, Beta, Omega. That our understanding of the pack structure has evolved doesn't mean those terms should be scraped. They add clarity instead of BS.
Randy
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Re: Pack Leader or Predator
[Re: Doug Alcorn ]
#241447 - 05/27/2009 11:43 AM |
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Reg: 07-09-2004
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Mike A.
"I wouldn't touch that dog, son. He don't take to pettin." Hondo, played by John Wayne |
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Re: Pack Leader or Predator
[Re: Connie Sutherland ]
#241455 - 05/27/2009 11:50 AM |
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Reg: 05-26-2009
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... Edited to add: However, I am disappointed at the tendency to let a discussion devolve into name calling and ad hominem arguments.
Flat-out lying will do that .... I think that "revising" and then lying about the first draft taints the whole thread, regardless of how silly the lie.
I quite resent being told that I misquoted you, Mr. Kelley, when I did not. I did in fact copy and paste exactly, adding nothing but quotation marks, just as I said. And you lied over something so silly and meaningless.
Actually, what I said was that you were mis- characterizing my statements. Looking at your original post, and how the quotes were linked together in terms of the discussion about wolf behavior I assumed that you had made up the last quote, since it's not something I remembered writing in that specific part of the article. I see now that you hadn't made it up or misquoted me. You just took it out of context, and used it in a way that was possibly misleading. (It was certainly misleading to me.)
Now you seem to think I was deliberately lying or hiding things by revising my article? That's ridiculous. My original statement is still there -- for anyone to see -- in my final version.
I would apologize for my mistake -- which was an honest one -- but you've gone way beyond what I would consider the appropriate tone for this kind of discussion.
The same holds true for most of the other people posting here. It's one thing to discuss issues, it's quite another to engage in the kind of juvenile dick-waving that Doug objected to (my words, not his). You'll notice that I didn't write an article bashing Cesar Millan. I simply pointed out what I think is a major flaw in his understanding of "dog psychology," and how by doing the opposite you may actually get better results.
Peace,
LCK
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Re: Pack Leader or Predator
[Re: Mike Arnold ]
#241458 - 05/27/2009 11:53 AM |
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Reg: 10-24-2008
Posts: 921
Loc: Indiana
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(Oh...if we can't have John Wayne, we have Mr. Arnold...love the way you drawl from your keyboard.)
Other than that comment, everyone else has opined and I am replete with information.
Look! I DO fit in the bag. |
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Re: Pack Leader or Predator
[Re: Lee Kelley ]
#241464 - 05/27/2009 11:57 AM |
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Reg: 07-13-2005
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Loc: North-Central coast of California
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... I would apologize for my mistake -- which was an honest one --
OK.
I did not like being flat-out contradicted (You said "I never wrote the words") when I knew that I had copied and pasted, but I understand mistakes.
I didn't like the revision happening before your response to the thread, either, but that too could have been simply coincidental.
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