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I hate to sound romantic...but what's wrong w/building a bond over years and having the kind of relationship where the dog DOES work for you?

Nothing wrong, but certain practical neccesities require certain things to be quick/easy/simple. It's just cold assembly-line fact in our modern context. Certain things...not everything.

A dichotomy seems to be implicit here, though. As if that pronounced prey/retrieval aspect negates the possibility of however it is you may want to achieve comparable objectives.

And objectives they are. Not subjectives.

Objectives which, not unimportantly for actual service dogs, are the things which the vast majority of PSDs do for the vast majority of the time...and it's not man work. It's dope and article searching.

I.e. Look at German Malinois Koerungs. I'd venture to say none of them would be considered lacking in prey...but yet plenty of them wilt under the stuff thrown at them in protection work. Going back to what I said...one is still possibly left with a useable product.

But it doesn't go the other way. Not a lot of single purpose aggression dogs in the U.S.

Oh Lord. I haven't the time to respond to all this. I will attempt to be brief.

To those who asked why forgo prey items? That's not the point. It's irrelevant. If you have a dog who is into that sort of thing, then whatever. Do what the dog likes best. What I am saying is it is not NECESSARY to interject prey/play items into every exercise. Everyone seems to assume that that's the "right" way to teach something. The right way is whatever works. All I'm saying is that prey/play objects are not an "across the board" necessity to show a dog what you would like him/her to do. Nothing wrong w/a game of ball if the dog likes that...it's just not necessarily needed for them to learn something.

As to repetition...not at all. Quite the contrary. More like figuring out a way to express what you want in a way the dog will understand, and building on that. I'll PM you how I started Caleb (actually, Widget too, LOL) tracking. That's kind of a good illustration, I guess, but I'm too lazy to post it all right now.

Why is it a richer reward? I guess that's one of those intangibles. It might not be for everyone. I liken it to wanting to take the scenic route instead of the tollway. Certainly, there is a time and a place for the tollway. Like when you're in a hurry- time is money, like Steve L. is saying.

But when the only reason for doing anything with my dog is to create a mutually enjoyable experience, why not try to enjoy the journey and the things you learn along the way as much as possible and get more out of it than you expected? Who doesn't have better stories of a road trip with a friend? I guess that's what it boils down to. I am not in any hurry to churn out some assembly line product, like many people have the need to do.

To Lepic...yes, you're right. That's reality. I don't have to like it. ;-)

To Dennis...(singing under my breath "I know a secret" in my best sing-song voice): I'm afraid, my friend, that you may not be correct. I find it interesting that Alyssa brought up a Chihuahua...this is pertinent. I cannot WAIT until I can spill what I know about this. It is KILLING me. The whole dog/wolf thing never made any sense to me from the time I was a child.

Genome projects are neat.

When I have more time- I have more to say.

A wise man once said.......
"Whoever can find the answer to this question: 'How can I say this to my dog?' Has already won the game."
~Captain Max von Stephanitz

My pup performed a perfect, natural bark and hold at the age of about 6 months, toward a neighbor who approached us in my front yard(between me and the neighbor, on the leash). When I told him it was ok, he settled in the down by my side and minded his own business.
Then again when he was about 9 months old, towards a different neighbor which crossed our side/front property line (no fence in front, only in back were the pup was). They were about 10 or so feet away from each other. Again a perfect and natural bark and hold, bouncing on his front paws and barking.

I don't know how to train this yet...but maybe if I can get more and different neighbors to trespass til he offers up the behavior, then praise and repeat til its consistent and then add a command. ; )

I think he would catch on pretty quick.
I believe that would be the most natural form of learning(which would be at his pace), he was obviously ready for it by offering or exuding the behavior itself naturally. He instinctually understood the value/meaning of the bark and hold, if you ask me.

Most of this is too academic for me to keep up with so I won't try. To me the toy is just an instrument that in the beginning helps me show him what I want. Its for the communication between us.Expressing what I want and building on it. At a certain point Andy decided its the interaction with me that is the reward not the toy itself.Thats when we progressed quickly and thats why a "Yeah Boy" can get those Good Dog Carl spins and flips.

The toy is just my end of the bargain. Just a part of things that form our relationship. I like to play and so does he.

I'd really be curious Jenni, to see what Caleb does with tracking now. Not how he was started. One way or another sniffing the ground is the start of it. Will he track for a hundred yards for just a pat on the side and a "Good Boy?"
No food or play for having done it?

 Quote: steve strom

.... Just a part of things that form our relationship. I like to play and so does he. ...

Me too, Steve.

 Quote: Alyssa Myracle

As an example:

What IS heeling?
Does your dog understand it the way you do?

Sorry, I skimmed and missed this. It's me that understands it the way he does. For Andy it's a position of comfort. He's confident and happy in an attentive heel. If he's unsure or stressed for any reason, you can see it go away when he comes into heel. It's an obvious interaction with me.

Take a look at the video of his ob, the part with the wall that went wrong.

Looks like you've put in some time. One day I'll get there...

sidenote: how do you post the icons from the "Posting Icon:" section? You select one and then what?

 Quote: steve strom

I'd really be curious Jenni, to see what Caleb does with tracking now. Not how he was started. One way or another sniffing the ground is the start of it. Will he track for a hundred yards for just a pat on the side and a "Good Boy?"
No food or play for having done it?

I don't really know what you're curious about. He has never once been given anything except "good seek" or "good find" during and at the end of a track. He loves to track...and he really doesn't have any reason to track, I guess, since he doesn't "get" anything out of it (at least in the terms you mean). He gets downright excited (and he's not a terribly excitable fellow) at the end of a track when he finds whoever/whatever. That's all I know. <shrug> Seems to me he must like it. Tell me specifically what you want to know and I'll try to answer it.

Do you not think a dog is capable of just enjoying something for the sake of doing it? Is that why you are asking?