Fetch Question:

Unless you are doing the fetch as an obedience exercise for competition (AKC, UKC etc.), he is at full liberty to not fetch when he thinks it is not fun any more.

Think of it this way, a child after studying for an hour and completing his homework gets to go out and play baseball with his friend for 1 hour , but 30 minutes through the play he decides that he has had enough and they just want to sit down and talk. It would be not wise on the parent's part to insist/encourage that he must play baseball for the other 30 minutes too.

Similarly the dog wants to chase the ball a few times and if he has had enough of it then he has had enough of it. Some dogs like to chase all day and others dont.

If you want to encourage him to fetch as just a fun behaviour (not for obedience shows) , you can mark reward every time he brings the ball to you.


If you want him to fetch as a structured obedience exercise, then you need to reinforce the fetch at various stages to make the experience rewarding. It involves a hold, pick up , bring , sit in front behaviour which needs to be trained as individual behaviours and then chained together.

 Quote: Rovena Kessinger

... I did have a professional teach me a little, and watch me click right away, so I do know what you mean with that. I think I've drifted from the proper method over time, clicking way too many times.

Re-watch the DVDs!

 Quote: Rovena Kessinger

You know, I had forgotten about that part where you don't do the command before he knows the action. I was trying to teach him to "stand", and I realized I was saying it a lot and he had no idea what it was. I'll go back to the correct way, now that I remember it.

I've degenerated into a lot of bad technique, I realize. I'm just doing some kind of mish-mash training that involves a clicker.

Watch the DVDs again.

Yes, the commands he knows, he'll do them anywhere in the house/garage/yard. It's a little nasty outside now for standing still and sitting and downing and stuff, but we can work on recall. The problem with that is he always comes to me in the house or yard; in fact he never leaves me. Walking in the woods--sometimes now; he doesn't run away, but he doesn't always come right to me either, if he's more interested in what he's doing.

I'm pretty sure this is the 5th or 6th time this has been posted, but seriously, this dog cannot be off-lead outside.

And you are tainting the recall every single time you use it this way (when you don't know if he will comply but have no recourse). You've trained the dog that the recall is optional. DON'T USE IT if you have doubts and no long-line backup. You need to start it over, and you probably need a new word and an indoor, no-distraction start.


... I will have him focus on me during walks. That's not something I've done much of.

That's where it's needed most --- outside.


..... general "don't chew on the blanket/your bed/my slipper/whatever thing is near your mouth at the moment".

I fear that we are again losing sight of the biggest goal here, which is basic ob with total focus on you that you can make bulletproof -- that can be (eventually) relied on as new alternate behavior when he is near a trigger situation.


"Ok, so the question is about the last time, when he won't fetch, and I have to go get the thing. I usually encourage him, maybe successfully, usually not, to get it. Then I just quit playing fetch, do something else. I've tried ignoring him and when he bugs me, tell him, "Get your toy/rope/whatever it is!", trying to give him the idea that I'm waiting for him to do it. If he doesn't, I take him to show him what I want. Usually by that time, he wants the thing again, so we can play again.

How do you handle the last throw of fetch that he won't go get? It may happen the second time, so I can't quit while he still wants to play always. I do try to do that when I can; stopping before he's bored."

Did you ever play two-ball? Are you exciting and excited? Do you use an item he loves to play with?

 Quote: Ramachandran Subramanian

Fetch Question:

Unless you are doing the fetch as an obedience exercise for competition (AKC, UKC etc.), he is at full liberty to not fetch when he thinks it is not fun any more.

Think of it this way, a child after studying for an hour and completing his homework gets to go out and play baseball with his friend for 1 hour , but 30 minutes through the play he decides that he has had enough and they just want to sit down and talk. It would be not wise on the parent's part to insist/encourage that he must play baseball for the other 30 minutes too.

Similarly the dog wants to chase the ball a few times and if he has had enough of it then he has had enough of it. Some dogs like to chase all day and others dont.

If you want to encourage him to fetch as just a fun behaviour (not for obedience shows) , you can mark reward every time he brings the ball to you.


If you want him to fetch as a structured obedience exercise, then you need to reinforce the fetch at various stages to make the experience rewarding. It involves a hold, pick up , bring , sit in front behaviour which needs to be trained as individual behaviours and then chained together.

Yea, it's just for fun, but I'm confused about what might be interpreted by him as like pack-leader failur or something.

I do reinforce him bringing it back, just becuase he didn't really fetch (and give back) at first, so I did it just to teach him to do it, and now he likes it, but it's no more than that really, just to encourage him to play, and as an opportunity to teach him to give me things he tedns to want to keep. Also it's a little annoying to have to go to get it myself on the last throw if he doesn't, but that is minor.

 Quote: Connie Sutherland

 Quote: Rovena Kessinger

You know, I had forgotten about that part where you don't do the command before he knows the action. I was trying to teach him to "stand", and I realized I was saying it a lot and he had no idea what it was. I'll go back to the correct way, now that I remember it.

I've degenerated into a lot of bad technique, I realize. I'm just doing some kind of mish-mash training that involves a clicker.

Watch the DVDs again.

I will.

I have another basic question about marker training.

OK, this is what I've been doing for the last few months: I wear the treat-bag constantly when I'm with Mondo. I click-treat him whenever he does something good spontaneously, or whenever he obeys something I need to tell him to do like "off" when he's jumping on the kitchen-counter, or "give" when he's gotten a shoe or something. (Not really treaining commands, just spontaneous "quit doing that" things. This seems to have worked well just for basic good house-dog manners, because he started out kind of wild, grabbing everything, jumping on things, and now he is much better, and always "gives", which worked well for tug of war too.)

OK, in the midst of doing that, several times a day we do real training, giving him commands, trying to work on something. Things that have taken a lot of time are getting him used to the muzzle, and getting him used to toenail-filing. (I've gone thru hell with cutting my other dogs' toenails; I thought with him, I'll try to do it right.) So besides "sit", etc, I do things like sit with him and take his paw and hold it, mess with the toenails, turn on the filer, etc. while click-treating, and not letting go until he stops pulling away. (We have progressed to one nanosecond of filing on one back toenail. Progress! He does let me touch his feet fine, just not the filing.)

OK, so this is what I don't understand. When you decide you are going to learn something new, how do you start? Do you just like stare at each other until he spontaneously does something? Do you start with commands he knows, then stop giving commands, stare at him, and wait for him to do something? Does this happen only during some defined "training session", and if so, how does he know it's that time? Or can you just do it anytime? Do you work only on one thing until they know what that is? I still don't know the difference between luring and bribing either.

He's changed how he trains me; instead of the tiny growl to get my attention, which I was learning to ignore, it was an up and down noise, sort of like he was very slightly hurt. Of course I looked at him, and he is staring at me intently, then happy becaue he tricked me.

Oh yea, the pack-leader stuff is separate than the marker training, right? I mean, I can suck at marker training and still do OK with the other, right? If I do the pack-leader stuff, and continue to suck at marker trianing but do manage to teach him some commands that he'll obey under distracted circumstances, will that matter much in the big scheme of things? LIke say I didn't manage to get marker training figured out quickly, or decide I need to wait til I find somebody to help me in person.

14 PAGES NOW!!!! And yet still not listening to the good advisc that people here have tried repetedly (out of care for the dog) to give you.

DO YOU REALLY WANT TO LEARN TO TRAIN OR JUST TALK ABOUT IT?!!

It seems that you do just the opposite that you have been told to do: dog should NEVER be off leash. Watch the DVDs, etc etc etc. .... but...but....but.... SERIOUSLY?!

If you spent as much time training as you do posting on this thread....your dog would thank you!

NILIF is all the time, yes.

Virtually all the rest of the post is answered in the DVDs. Some of the questions are very surprising coming from someone who watched them, which is why I've said several times now to re-watch them. Study them, in order (#219 -- Markers -- and then #220 -- Food).

"OK, so this is what I don't understand. When you decide you are going to learn something new, how do you start? Do you just like stare at each other until he spontaneously does something? Do you start with commands he knows, then stop giving commands, stare at him, and wait for him to do something? Does this happen only during some defined "training session", and if so, how does he know it's that time? Or can you just do it anytime? Do you work only on one thing until they know what that is? "

There's free-shaping, which for many people is harder, and which involves capturing a spontaneous behavior/move/position. http://leerburg.com/flix/videodesc.php?id=91

And there's shaping, such as luring the dog into position, maybe a sit.

Watch the videos, is my advice, and then start over with sit. It's simple, it's easy to lure the dog into position, and it's a good success to build on.

"I still don't know the difference between luring and bribing either."

To avoid bribing: Keep the reward in the bait bag or otherwise out of sight until it comes out to reward after the mark.

Luring is obvious: An example is using the food item to lure the dog into a position like sit.

http://www.ehow.com/video_2200202_dog-training-lures_-rewards_-bribes.html

Yea, it's just for fun, but I'm confused about what might be interpreted by him as like pack-leader failur or something.

Just make sure the rules are...he has to bring it back, let go when told to "drop it" or "give"...in other words, no possessing the toy. You can play tug with it and actually this is great to encourage him to come back to you...and stop when he wants more, it builds the desire to play.