Re: Head shaking and growling in bitework...
[Re: Ray Fajardo ]
#245297 - 07/03/2009 02:55 PM |
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Looks like you've put in some time. One day I'll get there...
sidenote: how do you post the icons from the "Posting Icon:" section? You select one and then what?
See my red exclamation point? I clicked the little empty circle by it.
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Re: Head shaking and growling in bitework...
[Re: Connie Sutherland ]
#245299 - 07/03/2009 02:57 PM |
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Sorry .... back to the topic!
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Re: Head shaking and growling in bitework...
[Re: Jenni Williams ]
#245305 - 07/03/2009 04:22 PM |
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That whoever/whatever at the end, what happens then? Is he tracking a specific trail like in a sport context or more like he's seeking around for whoever/whatever like a hide and seek game we play with puppies?
I have no doubt a dog will do something just because he enjoys it, but where does it become tracking something specific for you versus searching around for whatever he wants, however he wants to?
Where does it become a reliable behavior that you can be confident that he's doing the actual job and not just putzing around sniffing whatever smells good?
I guess I'm having a hard time with the dog kinda self rewarding but reliably doing what you want, does that make sense?
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Re: Head shaking and growling in bitework...
[Re: Ray Fajardo ]
#245310 - 07/03/2009 05:06 PM |
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Looks like you've put in some time. One day I'll get there...
sidenote: how do you post the icons from the "Posting Icon:" section? You select one and then what?
Food and Toys Ray, Lol.
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Re: Head shaking and growling in bitework...
[Re: steve strom ]
#245311 - 07/03/2009 05:09 PM |
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Is he tracking a specific trail like in a sport context or more like he's seeking around for whoever/whatever like a hide and seek game we play with puppies? How would anything but a specific trail (or at least a specific goal; the handler may not even know the trail) be considered tracking?
I have no doubt a dog will do something just because he enjoys it, but where does it become tracking something specific for you versus searching around for whatever he wants, however he wants to? HUH? That's not tracking.
Where does it become a reliable behavior that you can be confident that he's doing the actual job and not just putzing around sniffing whatever smells good? Are you being serious or just trying to give me a hard time?
I guess I'm having a hard time with the dog kinda self rewarding but reliably doing what you want, does that make sense? I don't think he really cares what it is I ask him to track...the reward apparently is in the action as well as at the find. I'm not sure "self rewarding" is the right term. Reward in the work might be a better way to think of it. I think some dogs just like to DO certain things. For Caleb, tracking is something he seems to like to do. I don't know exactly; I'd have to ask the dog.
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Re: Head shaking and growling in bitework...
[Re: Jenni Williams ]
#245314 - 07/03/2009 05:30 PM |
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No, I'm not giving you a hard time. Just trying to understand. I'm just trying to understand how you can reliably depend on a dog, not just Caleb, to do something in a specific way if you needed him to without either compulsion or enough of a reward for the completion of a task. What would keep him driven to do it if it got difficult.
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Re: Head shaking and growling in bitework...
[Re: steve strom ]
#245318 - 07/03/2009 06:02 PM |
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I don't need him to do it "in a specific way." That's part of the point. I don't care how he does it, as long as he does it. I can't track. That's the dog's department. I would be SOL if I had to find someone without a cell phone, let alone based on scent. I just tell him what he's looking for and let him decide how to do it.
It's really quite easy. Heck, I have even done this with Widget. Chihuahuas can track, BTW. Start w/something that you know will inspire the dog to exhibit the behavior. Sort of like Ray suggested a while ago. Then, as they are exhibiting it (in this case, tracking), pair a command with it, like "seek" or "find." As they continue on (self-motivated, at this point) praise them w/that word..."good seek." He/she will quickly associate what the word means. Go from there. The first few times you do it, make sure it's something they want to find. It seems like their idea at this point, and all you are doing is giving them a word/phrase to associate w/this action.
They are rewarded by the find (because they wanted to find it) and now have a positive association for the action. I have used zero compulsion, and I didn't need any external reward.
I think you are over-emphasizing the "reward" or putting too much weight on YOUR interpretation of what a reward is for a dog. Or, I just still don't understand what you mean.
I could give you examples via PM if that's what you want to know.
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Re: Head shaking and growling in bitework...
[Re: steve strom ]
#245320 - 07/03/2009 06:13 PM |
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As an example:
What IS heeling?
Does your dog understand it the way you do?
Sorry, I skimmed and missed this. It's me that understands it the way he does. For Andy it's a position of comfort. He's confident and happy in an attentive heel. If he's unsure or stressed for any reason, you can see it go away when he comes into heel. It's an obvious interaction with me.
Take a look at the video of his ob, the part with the wall that went wrong.
How, and why, did it become a position of comfort?
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Re: Head shaking and growling in bitework...
[Re: steve strom ]
#245326 - 07/03/2009 06:56 PM |
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I think maybe a different way to say it is, all dogs sit, bark, bite, scent, whatever. Everything that you want to train the dog to do he/she already does it.
So really the only thing you need to do is bridge the gap in communication. When they are sitting= good sit. Dog says, oh that's what this is called 'sit', ok.
Dog barks=good speak or whatever command, Dog says to him/herself, oh that's what this is called 'speak'. And so on...so basically in everyday life as the dog is doing what he/she always does your explaining to them what there doing has a name, basically raising/teaching, or creating a line of communication.
And as you praise them for whatever behavior you also increase the support system(or the want to focus more and expand/build on that skill, depending what it is ie:tracking), I guess you can say, for that behavior, or motivator/response (which at that point will be the "ata boy". So you actually has a dog that works for YOU. : ) The End.
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Re: Head shaking and growling in bitework...
[Re: Ray Fajardo ]
#245327 - 07/03/2009 07:07 PM |
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It might kinda seem like your orchestrating rather than commanding.
Heck a dog even 'outs' on its own. When was the last time you've seen a dog bite something and never let go....is it still in the bite now? It seems like the compulsion is only a way, an uncomfortable way for the dog, to speed the process up, and negates the dogs natural thought processes. When in the end isn't that what we want a dog to posess, natural thought processes. Well the fact is that they do, if we allow them they can build on them.
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