Maybe reward is the wrong word. How about reinforce? I'm not asking about starting a dog, more how you maintain it when it gets difficult.Like if he finds some cross track a whole lot more interesting and follows it instead. Don't intermittant rewards on a track keep his interest in following the correct track?

Maybe I'm missing what you mean, are you saying the dog will follow the correct track always strictly for a find at the end of it and a little verbal praise when you don't even know if he's on the actual track?

Nothing nefarious on my part Jenni, but oddly enough we're not understanding each other. How about that. Sorry about your thread Ray.

 Quote: Alyssa Myracle

 Quote: steve strom

 Quote: Alyssa Myracle

As an example:

What IS heeling?
Does your dog understand it the way you do?

Sorry, I skimmed and missed this. It's me that understands it the way he does. For Andy it's a position of comfort. He's confident and happy in an attentive heel. If he's unsure or stressed for any reason, you can see it go away when he comes into heel. It's an obvious interaction with me.

Take a look at the video of his ob, the part with the wall that went wrong.

How, and why, did it become a position of comfort?

Because he was heavily rewarded for being in the correct position with both food and toys no matter what the distraction leading him to the conclusion that this is a good place to be and I'm not a bad guy to be next to.

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The first few times you do it, make sure it's something they want to find.

Heyyy, this wouldnt be a toy, would it?????

 Quote: steve strom

Maybe I'm missing what you mean, are you saying the dog will follow the correct track always strictly for a find at the end of it and a little verbal praise when you don't even know if he's on the actual track?

WHERE ARE YOU GETTING THIS? How is it "tracking" if I supposedly "DON'T EVEN KNOW IF HE'S ON THE ACTUAL TRACK?" Until I understand where that thought even came from, I have no idea how to answer you, because I cannot at this point even comprehend what you are picturing. How would I not know very quickly if he's on the actual track? Unless you think it's possible that coincidentally, after a long track (or just aimlessly wandering around the woods or wherever for an hour or so), we just happen to run into the very same person we were tracking, who just so happens to be hiding in a tree, for example. Maybe because the dog just decided that particular tree was one he'd been wanting to check out for a while? LOL. Another invaluable way to verify that you are making progress in the correct direction is a cell phone.

Several years ago I tracked a few times w/someone who thought they were very clever and funny. We would agree on a direction and route he was going to take, (so I would have a general idea where the find should be and how closely the dog was following and if he was airscenting and cutting the track or taking the exact route) and then he would decide to go a completely different route and often through terrain that would get me wet or messy, and usually annoyed. He would be nowhere near the agreed upon spot, once leaving the area altogether and crossing a 4 lane road via an underground concrete tunnel. The first time, I was unsuspecting. I dragged the dog off the track and tried to get him to follow the track that I thought he should be on. It didn't work. He didn't even put his nose down on my track, and pulled back toward the way he wanted to go for a while. I finally made an exasperated phone call to Mr.Clever, whose grand advice was to "trust your dog" or something equally poetic.
One time, he took advantage of the fact that Caleb loves water. He went off the predetermined general route and sat right near a big pond, so I'd think the dog was pulling b/c he wanted to go swimming. Every time I second guessed my dog, I looked like an idiot. He was dead on every time. All in all, I'm glad Mr. Clever did these little variations; I did learn very quickly to trust my dog.

If you can read your dog, it is really quite simple to tell if they're on the track. If the dog understands the exercise, ie, what's expected of him (to find the object you're after, without followig deer and rabbits), it's not hard at all to keep them on the track. I have had my dog tracking and then had 6 horses race through the trees around us from out of nowhere, and he stayed on the track...because it wasn't the horses he was looking for; he hadn't found the guy he was looking for yet, so he kept going. Did he look up startled for a second? Sure, but then he circled once and kept on.

Ray, I agree with a lot of what you said in your recent posts. That point that they already do everything we are asking is a huge point that so many people miss. We are not teaching them anything. We are simply communicating to them WHEN we would like to see that skill that they already possess by labeling it with words/phrases/actions/cues/whatever. This is also key to what I am beating my head against a wall trying to communicate right now. The dog knows how to track. All you have to do is link that to a cue that tells them when and what. We are merely communicating to them what behavior we would like to see at certain times and toward what outcome.

Steve, I must not have been clear about saying my dog has never been rewarded with a toy or food. He gets food when he is hungry, or when I decide to give him a treat for the hell of it, and he plays with toys for fun and entertainment. The answer to your sarcastic question regarding whether the first thing he tracked was a toy is NO.

The question I see Steve asking is "what is the ultimate reward for the dog that got him to this state of training". When Caleb found Mr. Clever, was it a pat on the head, a "good boy", and then it was over? Would it be possible that Caleb isn't the average dog? I'm asking because I'm extremely curious as to what you're doing. You seem to be saying that no reward is necessary because the dog is self rewarding every behavior and that you aren't really doing any training/teaching/whatever. Again, I'm genuinely curious and not trying to ruffle your feathers.

As far as self rewarding behavior goes...

What do you like to do??? Watch a football game, go to dog trials, surf the internet....whatever. Is it not self rewarding or do you get a treat afterwards.

Maybe your(not directed at anyone in particular) wife likes to go or do something that you may or may not particularly care for like go to a nice restaurant every once in a while or movie .... whatever(not that you despise doing whatever it's just not your cup of tea), do you get a nice treat afterwards?

Same difference ; )

Ok, I give. No reinforcement for the correct choices,just the natural abilities of the dog.

Steve, there are always reinforcements as in verbal cues(good seek etc...)(=want to work for You), when you are building or encouraging the skill being displayed. Which they are enjoying anyways otherwise they'd be displaying a different habit or skill and you may be working on building that skill as a result.

But Ideally you put the dog in a situation that you know will inspire the dog to exhibit the desired behavior/motivation/response that you are trying to build up.

Baby steps first.

Basically you find what the dog likes to do and build on it...it is that simple. Some dogs may or may not like to track or whatever it is your after.

My dog love, no, LOVES to bark if something doesn't seem right to him or he hears an unusual sound or someone at the door. He needed minimal reinforcements for me to actually encourage him to bark. I can get him to shut up...however if he feels particularly motivated (as in he feels like he has real reason to bark and alert, he will ignore me). Which is what i'm after. Natural, individual thought processes.

I can think of a Really easy way to make your dog track something he Really wants. ; )

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Steve, there are always reinforcements as in verbal cues(good seek etc...)(=want to work for You), when you are building or encouraging the skill being displayed. Which they are enjoying anyways otherwise they'd be displaying a different habit or skill and you may be working on building that skill as a result.

But Ideally you put the dog in a situation that you know will inspire the dog to exhibit the desired behavior/motivation/response that you are trying to build up.

Baby steps first.

Ray, I think may be unintentionally underestimating Steve's ability...

The argument here is that some are professing to use no food or toys to teach a dog, only their own self motivation to please themselves or the handler.

I can't even imagine not rewarding my dogs with SOMETHING tangible for a job well done. Sure, praise its self works for some dogs, but I think you are missing the boat to not try to communicate in a more efficient manner.

Essentially, it sounds like some are waiting for the dog to offer the behavior on its own and allowing the behavior its self to be the reward. Fine. I want more out of my dog. I want them to do it for ME because I asked them. When they do, I uphold my end of the bargain, and reward them for a job well done.

The treats and toys (or verbal praise) are nothing more than tools to make the communication process and the understanding happen faster. They fade eventually and are often not needed (if they are, you missed a step somewhere), but are often brought back for no reason other than rewarding a dog.

My dog does NOT enjoy lying down when the other dogs are playing and roughhousing, he wants to join in in the WORST way! He practically vibrates with restraint. As he is not offering a behavior he enjoys (as per the quote above) and he wants to "display a different habit or skill," ie. jump in and pay too, how do I teach him to stay under VERY heavy distractions? This is actually a very serious question, and I am curious how one would teach this without correction, force, treats or toys.

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Basically you find what the dog likes to do and build on it...it is that simple. Some dogs may or may not like to track or whatever it is your after.

My dog love, no, LOVES to bark if something doesn't seem right to him or he hears an unusual sound or someone at the door. He needed minimal reinforcements for me to actually encourage him to bark.

As you get ore into dog sport (I think you have mentioned wanting to) You will find that we do use whatever the dog likes as a reward. My male likes the bite, plain and simple. We withhold the bite if the dog does not perform the exercise correctly. The bite is the reward for doing what I asked. Before he understood that he liked to bite, and before he knew what I wanted him to do, I used food rewards to explain it to him and toys to make it more exciting. Now I could not get him to take a treat or a ball for anything when he is doing bite work. Those rewards faded and the self rewarding bite is the reward. He learned faster what was being asked and was able to get there with very few corrections during the process.

There come a point in training that there is no encouraging, only controlling, and this is where the training begins... Using the tools the dogs shows us that he likes.

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I can get him to shut up...however if he feels particularly motivated (as in he feels like he has real reason to bark and alert, he will ignore me). Which is what I'm after. Natural, individual thought processes.

And this is what we try to control. For me, it is NOT acceptable that my dog may choose to ignore me. Period. I don't mind that he may choose to bark, but he better be quiet if I ask him. The problem with natural, independent thought process is that he is a DOG. He does not know what a real threat is. He may take it in his head that the bum walking by with the 10 full trash bags is a life or death situation; I know is really is not. That is why I am the master and he is the dog :shrug:.

I do like him to think when training. I like him to wonder and try things to figure out how to do it better, but he still must do what I ask.

Training is taking and using the dogs natural tendencies and putting control on them. You figure out what it takes to do it, and use it. Nothing more. Some here have different ways of doing it and some do it for different reasons.

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I can think of a Really easy way to make your dog track something he Really wants. ; )

How? What would YOU do? And in the context of foot step tracking...