Actually, you know, Joyce is right. The point of rehashing all this is moot.

hah, yes, we have thought of Cesar:-) Yes, we can write but there is no guarantee he'll come, he is a busy man:-)

I think people have general misunderstanding when they say "dominant dog". Some people think dominant means "red zone aggressive". She is dominant, or I know totally nothing and then I give up entirely. I cannot praise or ignore aggression from a pack animal that's establishing who is the boss because "she is confused".

Right now I am just working with her on calm, structured walks. Which we are going to do right now.
Yes, by now I am afraid of her. It takes me a couple of weeks to feel confident with her after a biting incident. After the first few incidents I was not afraid. Now, I am. it's been kinda enough, I guess. She conditioned me.

But I know her body language, I don't believe she is UNPREDICTABLE, just fast. I usually see her getting ready to get pissy, I just never "run away" and stand and try to deal with her. She is my dog, my responsibility. Sadly:-(

Jessica: I listed why she is dominant, so it's easy to read, not going thru tons of posts.

 Quote: maria martynchik

I think people have general misunderstanding when they say "dominant dog". Some people think dominant means "red zone aggressive". She is dominant, or I know totally nothing and then I give up entirely.

I agree that most do as well... But so then how do YOU describe dominant dogs?

"red zone aggressive" is also very subjective (besides being a very clique-ish phrase that tells of extensive Caesar watching...)

My fear is if you keep describing a dog as dominant and aggressive, then you will have a harder time placing her...

 Quote:

I think people have general misunderstanding when they say "dominant dog".

Include yourself in that Maria. I think the problem is the way its thrown around to describe almost every misbehavior.

 Quote: maria martynchik

Guarding food. (Solved, for owners)
Potentially dominant. Potentially fear-based. Especially when you factor in that the dog was being messed with over food off and on, and in different ways, for quite some time. That's going to make an unsure dog act funny about food. Factor in that this dog was neglected, as you have pointed out.
Guarding MY objects. (Solved) See above.
Guarding bed, hers and MINE where she was not invited. (Solved) See above.
Putting paws on my feet, head on my arm/hand/etc every time I approach. (Unresolved) Potentially dominant. Potentially based on a lack of trust. She doesn't trust you to come into her space. Raising of one paw is often a submissive gesture. Potentially a dog who hasn't been socialized and taught manners. Potentially a dog who has been taught, by you, that physical interaction is what you want.
Demanding petting, pushing HARD into me when she needs it.
Potentially dominant. Potentially a dog who hasn't been socialized and taught manners. Potentially a dog who has been taught, by you, that physical interaction is what you want.
Snapping when I touch her flank. (Resolved) Potentially dominant, as some dominant dogs do flank guard. Potentially related to pain, or poor eyesight or hearing, and the dog reacting in surprise at being unaware of your approach. Potentially touch sensitivity as is common in females of this breed when spayed young. Potentially fear based, as you have physically dominated her and she feels forced to defend herself.
Aggressive/snapping/nipping while being groomed (Solved) Potentially dominant. Potentially play behavior. Potentially the result of never having been exposed to grooming and having been trained to tolerate it. Potentially related to pain. Potential touch sensitivity. Potentially an attempt at mutual grooming, which would be affection, or an attempt at submissive mouthing.
Aggressive while being corrected. Fairly, for KNOWN things (Unresolved) I can't imagine how ANY command could possibly have been trained and proofed in only three months with a dog who is so unmanageable and uncooperative, and who has spent a good amount of time in the NILIF program, to the degree that it warrants a correction. Your definition of "known" behavior is suspect. Additionally, you have no described aggression. Every instance of a dog's teeth touching you is not aggression. It can in fact be submissive behavior, or play, or a genuine accident. Correcting a dog with a prong collar puts drive into a dog. A dog that was fixated on a prey item and corrected with a prong collar may redirect that heightened drive onto the owner without it EVER having been dominant. My very handler-soft, submissive GSD bitch can do this.
She hates when you touch her head and mouthes instead (Solved with us, the same with strangers) She hates something, so you keep doing it? How kind is that? The mouthing is submissive behavior. You are being dominant by handling her head, and she is submitting by licking and mouthing your hands. She also never learned manners during her early neglect, remember? A dominant dog would bite you in a flash for this.
Pushy, demanding food, growling if made sit for it (Solved) Potentially aggressive. Potentially pain. A dog that growls when told to sit, and is flinching and reacting when touched on the hind end would be getting hip x-rays for dysplasia, ESPECIALLY a large breed that was a BYB and whose parents weren't screened for HD. Some dogs are also just plain vocal. Additionally, you've made her wary of obedience commands with your inconsistent training.
LOVING to lie on high places (DINNER TABLE), grumpy when chased off. (SOLVED) Potentially dominance. More likely a lack of training. She wasn't raised in a house. She's only been in one for three months. If she is in pain, as mentioned above, it may be physically painful to move, hence the grumpiness.
Extreme dog aggression (Solved) Almost always fear based.
Possessiveness.(Working) Already covered this above.
Dragging people on the leash (Solved, almost) Lack of training.
IGNORING known commands (especially LEAVE IT or DOWN). It isn't possible for any command to be known in the amount of time you've had her, and with the training approach you've had.


Ummm. What is NOT dominant.

Better question:
What is?

Even better question:
What is a "bite"?

A dominant dog would not tolerate most of the things you're describing, and certainly would not respond by "mouthing" you.

Yes, she is difficult, pushy, and rude.

I have serious suspicions that she may have back or hip problems.
I also suspect that she is rude and pushy.
That does not make her dominant, it makes her in need of consistent, fair training. Something she hasn't gotten yet, and something that takes much longer than THREE MONTHS.

 Quote: maria martynchik

You have no idea how much I care for this animal

QUOTES:

.. there is NO bond with her. I find her cute, but that's about it.

I barely pet this dog a couple of times in the last month, and we have not played together for god knows how long.

I don't "tell" myself that I don't trust her. Once cannot really stop the thought process, no matter how one tries. it's just something I feel...

I am really upset with her, not talking to her, keep her in the crate and take her out on very short walks, and NOT liking her now.


You can see why reading about the emotional roller-coaster is hard (and yes, I DO understand that riding it is far worse).



And about "dominance" and "dominant aggression" ....

QUOTES:

We used to alpha-roll her long time ago, before we got a prong collar. .... now she also tries it every time she messes up, flips over and surrenders .... (Dominant!?)

...when she didn't understand what I want she would still roll over just in case, maybe it'll work and I'll give her something. (Or maybe abject surrender is the default you taught this "dominant aggressive" dog?)




"I think people have general misunderstanding when they say "dominant dog". Some people think dominant means "red zone aggressive".

I think so too. And that misunderstanding is in play here, too, I think.

Pushiness, fear-aggression, resource-guarding, anxiety, confusion, social-climbing, opportunism, adolescent brattiness .... these are all often what's really going on when an owners refers to a dog as dominant-aggressive and even handler-aggressive (a term you used early on).

 Quote: jessicakromer

.... My fear is if you keep describing a dog as dominant and aggressive, then you will have a harder time placing her...

I agree. Again, this is my overriding reason for bringing up again and again a detailed eval to present to a rescue rather than only your assessment.



Perhaps definition and language have been some of the problem here.

But at this point, I agree with you that rehashing is a waste of time. You and your husband dislike and distrust the dog, all inconsistent handling and misguided "training" aside, and the dog needs to be removed.

I strongly believe that the best investment you can make is to get the most expert eval possible, documented as clearly as possible, and then to surrender the dog to the best breed rescue possible.

There's a lot of emotion here, and it's counterproductive. Maybe stripping down to what the dog needs .... maybe that will trigger needed resolution.

 Quote:

I strongly believe that the best investment you can make is to get the most expert eval possible, documented as clearly as possible, and then to surrender the dog to the best breed rescue possible.

Yes, my thoughts exactly Connie.

Maria, when I suggested Cesar Milan's place, I meant to surrender the dog to, not for him to come to your home.

As discussed at length here in this thread, you said that you are in a very difficult place financially to get the dog further training, evaluations etc.

I just want to reiterate that you should feel no shame in admitting this dogs' needs are beyond your abilities.
It doesn't mean you didn't try to help Yuma or that you don't care for Yuma.

The best you can do for her is to get her to the people who can evaluate her situation and go on to help place her where she can live a happy life.
Doing this, is an act of care and love.

 Quote: maria martynchik

Sorry, if somebody starts judging me for NOT having money and this person is SUCH an altruist, how about lending me some, for free haha? Seriously, I don't think it's appropriate to get this "up close and personal" with people you don't know.

Maria, I completely understand your frustration and anger at my post. As I stressed, there is NOTHING WRONG with needing assitance at some point in our lives. Nothing.

The information I commented on was information you had publically discussed numerous times, to the point that it was a very common theme throughout all the posts. If it was information you preferred us to not take into account, it should not have been shared on a public forum. If information is given which a forum member believes has an impact on the situation, it is appropriate to comment on that fact. I think the points I made are legitimate, albiet hard to hear. As I said earlier, my reason for expressing my opinion was to perhaps cause someone else to reconsider bringing a dog into the home if that animal could easily have a negative financical impact.

I can think of three times in just the past two years when members of this forum have financially assisted other members for various reasons. It might not seem like it right now, but the LB forum is a very supportive group of individuals. Everyone shares generously of their knowledge, time, emotions and friendship, and occassionally, in other tangible ways.

I wish you and this dog only the best Maria.

Aaron; I am sorry, but what I am describing IS a dominant dog behaviour. Look anywhere. If you have seen her, you would have known. It is really funny how according to you she is half-blind, possibly deaf, "insecure" and oh so scared of everyday things that she for some reason demands to have nevertheless, also fro some reason apparently has sever pain in her hind legs, so dumb she could NOT have learned sit and down in 10 months (she knew some commands long before we got her plus I trained her a lot before I realized she is not submissive enough to trust), also SO submissive that she tried to growl and with erect ears and puffed up stance attempted to take my hand off for things I already described multiple times.
According to you, looks like she needs to be on a drip in the hospital and have a therapist to work withe her cause she is clearly severely ill, then (regardless of a clear bill of health the vet gave us twice).

She WAS raised in the house. She stayed in the backyard all day and slept in the house in her owner's bed. I thought I said this, many times. She was pushy there too, and never put in her place. When she misbehaved and was corrected she nipped. They clearly did not know what to do and were afraid to touch her judging by how tremendously pissed she was when touched by us at first. I had a cat just like that for 15 years, same behaviour, but he was not a big *ss dog so we managed.

She is NOT play-biting. Also, submissive dogs have ENTIRELY different body language. When she is submissive, she is smaller, calm, ears apart, even her eyes look different. When she is like this...she is ready for battle, puffs up, tries to be larger, very assertive. and no, she is not sick, she is very energetic, totally healthy prey-driven dog. Again, I grew up with a large breed dog. I actually do know this.

The only thing that unites all you have selected is one "Potentially dominant".

we are going to start calling the shelters, etc. today's walk and my general observations confirm that this dog is unsafe to be in the family. Period. yes, I am NOT fit to handle her, and I will not advise most people to try. She is treacherous and cannot be trusted, at least for the time being. MY bad was that I adopted her. Well, I guess we saved her from the shelter for three and a half months, fed her up, vetted her, gave her a warm place to sleep, etc., etc. She even knows some new commands now. Not bad, in my opinion, better than sitting in a cage at the pound, or being euthanized. Hopefully we will find her a decent shelter program or an owner or a rescue organization hat will take her in. I have by this time a strong desire to bring her back to her previous owner and force her to take her poor dog back, and deal with her herself. She can be liable for NOT telling us in the beginning that her animal was aggressive.

Regarding me "loving the dog"....Hmmm. I had her for three months. She started with aggression, continued with aggression, when I thought we are out of the woods she proceeded with aggression. i got attached to her, admired her, drew portraits of her, sketched her, played with her and marker-trained her. I was so proud I got such a gorgeous dog, or any dog at all after years of not having one. She responded accordingly, so yes, what LOVE are we talking about? Love or respect cannot be forced. On her part, as well.