very possible, this behaviour is however also displayed in other contexts eg whenever i run around, whenever anything at all basically moves away from her regardless of what, size or level of threat, in fact the less stressful the situation the more she does it. she also does the same behaviour to my Toro grass cutter and will spend hours on it unless i lock her up. the dog has been started on sheep & cattle and the behaviours appear exactly the same with no visible signs of stress. she does exactly the same thing with wild hog & deer except the bark gets more intense and less play like. not discounting avoidance but i don't think enough evidence to conclude that yet untill she is pushed more. all the helper said was that he was impressed with how focussed she was on the rag and the level of drive, and that upon evaluation said she will be an easy & fun dog to train.

cheers

Circling to the front, and failing to bite, is "fear and avoidance"? Is "heading" actually lack of confidence to "heel?" That would explain a bunch, I find that idea really interesting. We heel ducks like nuts, always behind. Heifers and steers, mostly behind. Cows and the bull, often in front.
Lots to learn from you folks!

sorry i dont quite understand your post Betty. the behaviour was that my dog kept blocking the running helper from the front - it did bite the rag aggrssively but only from the front of the helper ie by jumping into his chest and gripping the rag. not the kind of motion i see in an escape routine where the sleeve is gripped parallel to the helpers motion ie dog running alongside helper gripping and then dragged along beside him. my first thought was a herding instinct hence a training issue ie don't block the nice helper and try bring him back to the handler.
not that this is a hunting thread but there are all types of biting styles in dogs eg; ear dogs, nose dogs, heelers etc all purpose bred for that specific bite style. there are even a large class of hunting dogs bred for no bite at all but aggressive beying done in circular motions around the head. i find it hard to believe that this is all simply avoidance.

To clarify, it was suggested (I thought) that running in front in the sport which you are doing might suggest that the dog was "avoiding", perhaps from fear.
My dog is a mixed breed ACD, and not yet very well trained. He has strong natural
instinct to drive the cattle, but often wants to rush at faces, especially the big mother cows and bull. So, I was thinking perhaps his actions (going in front) indicate that he is frightened. He never circles in front of ducks or calves, and he also shows no fear of these.

thanks for the clarification, my dog hasn't been bred for scutzhund type work but am having a lot of fun learning the training excercises with her. i will get a more suitable second trial dog in the future. the people in the club i have attended seem very welcoming of having a dog other than a mal or GSD come along, it all gets a bit samey same otherwise the majority of people just want to title their dog, not win the nationals, they seem the most helpful to the newbs.
i chuckled watching the Micheal Ellis DVD when he refered to "alternative breeds" meaning anything that was not a mal or GSD i guess - talk about closed minded & slightly pompous haha.

some of the agility people i have recently spoken to are familair with herding breeds displaying the kinds of behaviour i was concerned about and have given me articles to deal specifically with the problem, it is not an uncommon training problem.

interestingly some trainer i predict will one day soon get a large dominant working border collie - the likes seen unregistered on many farms and will completely wipe the floor with mals & GSD'in schutzhund type sports, just like mals already did with the GSD breed.

Peter,when you know .00001% 0f what Mike Ellis does about dogs, in general, breeds aside, you can call him anything you want. Until then, please spare us your criticism of a gentleman well-liked & well-respected here. Many of us have had the opportunity, pleasure & experience of working with him...more than once & believe me when I tell you that he is one of the most wonderfull, HUMBLE men on this planet. And also one of the few that has the knowledge & experience to be an arrigant obnoxious, pompous PITA!!!!! But yet he remains, likable, approachable & a fun guy to train with or just hang out with.

So do us all a favor & take your BS somewhere else!

 Quote: Peter Cavallaro

interestingly some trainer i predict will one day soon get a large dominant working border collie - the likes seen unregistered on many farms and will completely wipe the floor with mals & GSD'in schutzhund type sports, just like mals already did with the GSD breed.

Please, let's not forget the Dutch shepherd too.

 Quote: peter cavallaro

i chuckled watching the Micheal Ellis DVD when he refered to "alternative breeds" meaning anything that was not a mal or GSD i guess - talk about closed minded & slightly pompous haha.

Congratulations Peter, you just made a lot of posters "idiot" list by that stupid remark.
You can count on being placed on a lot of peoples "ignore" list.

Peter,

You may want to think twice about calling someone you don't know "closed minded".

You have bought all of Michaels DVDs and you should have a sense of the man. The last thing in the world he is - is CLOSE MINDED.

Michael came into the dog training world with show bloodline German Shepherds. For a long time he had Pitt Bulls. He actually went all over this country trying to find pitt bulls that can do the ring sports. This was before he settled into Mals.

Some of Michaels best friends in California - people he socializes with and trains with have bull dogs. Good bull dogs.

I cant tell you how many of Michaels seminars I have been too. I lost count. He treats people with more respect than any instructor I have seen in my 35 or so years of dog sports.

Maybe what you should do is come to his school in Ca. and spend some time there. You should have studied his dvds and because of that you would get 10 times more out of actually attending his school. You would alos get an opportunity to know one of the best guys in the dog sports.

I am going to close this thread - no thread is worth 16 pages of posts.

i apologise. ME's DVD's totally blew me away and have permanently changed everything i do for the better as would anyone who studies them, i am an instant fan. i can't be anything other than grateful for that. in fact i had a few all-nighters watching them over & over. so please don't let my response to one comment (which he did say)out of some 10 hours of video instruction cloud things. i am sure ME is a big enough man to take it in context.