Steve Z., yes I understand. I do take counsel from them and am just trying to "get up to speed quick on certain aspects of training and philosophy", and basically filling in the gaps so that when I do call on them I have better more logical questions and understand the responses better.

I agree 100% as far as actual experience not being able to be replaced by internet learning/reading.


By the way, how is your pup doing? Didn't you get a pup right around the same time?

Steve,
I'd be the last person to say that prey isn't a large portion in the make up of the GSD, and a very important one at that. You'll never see or hear me any where be dismissive of it's value.
Once again though, without the balancing of the other factors in born to the dog, what do you end up with?
Seemly what happens when over the top prey is bred is that other pieces of the matrix become smaller, resulting in many (far to many) cases a huge imbalance in the bred that some in this thread (I think) have been trying to articulate.
When prey becomes the be all and end all what you end up with may look like a GSD but in reality is really only a poor second cousin to what the breed is suppose to represent.

Randy

Would it be fair to say that it's not "too much prey" (how can there be too much prey drive in a hunting species?), but "not enough" of everything else you are looking for?

Or is that what you are saying?

Ray,
I agree with you entirely and that was what I was trying to articulate, but, I feel that some think that prey should be bred out of the dog.
Personally, I think that there are many people who are incapable of handling a dog with a lot of drive (in any of the named variants) because they do not know how to channel the energy in to something meaningful or useful. Prey becomes the easy target because it is the one that shows up most often in every day life because as you correctly put it, "it is a large portion of the makeup of a GSD."

Your statement about what the GSD is supposed to represent is an interesting one. What is it supposed to represent???
I have been thinking about this a lot lately. Without really naming them and taking the time to write them down on a piece of paper, my guess is that there are about twenty or so different types of GSD. There may be more. I don't know and I guess it boils down to how you want to classify them, but, that's my guess. With so many different types it easily proves how popular, and more important, how versatile this breed is.
My question then is,....What is wrong with people owning and breeding the type of GSD they like?
Why can't we, as a whole, accept that?
You and I may like our GSD's a certain way, but, Johnny, Susie and Joey might like them a different way. I don't see anything wrong with that. As a person that co-founded a cat and dog rescue 10 years ago I guess I have a very different perspective. As you can imagine, I have seen a lot of animals that have been put through hell, or worse, by humans. I guess where I'm going with this is that I am at the point where it makes me laugh when people complain about what the GSD has evolved in to.
For me, I am extremely happy to see so many people who love their dogs, and, do so much with them, that they have to fight over which type is better.

 Quote: connie sutherland

Would it be fair to say that it's not "too much prey" (how can there be too much prey drive in a hunting species?), but "not enough" of everything else you are looking for?

Or is that what you are saying?

I've been wondering that, as well. Good points.

 Quote: stevezorn

Ray,
I agree with you entirely and that was what I was trying to articulate, but, I feel that some think that prey should be bred out of the dog.
Personally, I think that there are many people who are incapable of handling a dog with a lot of drive (in any of the named variants) because they do not know how to channel the energy in to something meaningful or useful. Prey becomes the easy target because it is the one that shows up most often in every day life because as you correctly put it, "it is a large portion of the makeup of a GSD."

Your statement about what the GSD is supposed to represent is an interesting one. What is it supposed to represent???
I have been thinking about this a lot lately. Without really naming them and taking the time to write them down on a piece of paper, my guess is that there are about twenty or so different types of GSD. There may be more. I don't know and I guess it boils down to how you want to classify them, but, that's my guess. With so many different types it easily proves how popular, and more important, how versatile this breed is.
My question then is,....What is wrong with people owning and breeding the type of GSD they like?
Why can't we, as a whole, accept that?
You and I may like our GSD's a certain way, but, Johnny, Susie and Joey might like them a different way. I don't see anything wrong with that. As a person that co-founded a cat and dog rescue 10 years ago I guess I have a very different perspective. As you can imagine, I have seen a lot of animals that have been put through hell, or worse, by humans. I guess where I'm going with this is that I am at the point where it makes me laugh when people complain about what the GSD has evolved in to.
For me, I am extremely happy to see so many people who love their dogs, and, do so much with them, that they have to fight over which type is better.

Using the rottie as an example. People have bred the dog they want out of the rottie, instead of the dog it's supposed to be, and now rottweilers are largely just shells of their former selves. The aggression is being bred out and, instead, "nice" dogs are being bred. As a long-time rottie lover, this flat out ticks me off. Just want a pet quality rottie? That's cool, just get one of the lower drive/pet quality animals from a given liter. Not breeding a pet quality animal is usually in the contract from good breeders for exactly this reason.

The point to me is about not watering down a breed to meet one specific need. Rather, breeding well rounded dogs with a willingness to work. Oddly, that work is often done in the much maligned prey drive. For instance, how's your dog going to herd if it doesn't have prey drive? Or, how is your dog going to a guardian if it has super high prey drive but is scared of its own shadow? I like this quote and think it fits this meandering discussion, "getting bit in prey drive hurts just as much as getting bit in defense drive". Prey drive is just a tool, both for the predator and the owner. Why not use it to your advantage? Seems to make sense to me. Just don't view it as the ultimate means to an end. At least these dogs in question aren't being born crippled for prancing around in a show ring. There are far worse breeding evils than just breeding for high prey drive.

 Quote: connie sutherland

Would it be fair to say that it's not "too much prey" (how can there be too much prey drive in a hunting species?), but "not enough" of everything else you are looking for?

Or is that what you are saying?

YES!
And that the breeding, training and most importantly, TESTING of these dogs is increasingly oriented to prey, and overlooks the other qualities!

Firstly the disclaimer, I am not nor do I aspire to be a breeder. I feel I know close to nothing about what follows enre to breeding and genetics. Anyone that can correct me, please do.
That being said.
Yes Connie, it's whats missing, whether through design or through short sightedness. As I understand it though, it's not just a matter of raising up the other drives to balance the equation. I believe I read somewhere that it works something like taking water from one pail to fill another. Because as there is only so much genetic material to begin with and only so much room allocated for it all to fit, one can't amp one without taking from another. Something like that.
I hope that made some kind of sense. And golly I hope it's right.lol

 Quote: randy allen

Firstly the disclaimer, I am not nor do I aspire to be a breeder. I feel I know close to nothing about what follows enre to breeding and genetics. Anyone that can correct me, please do.
That being said.
Yes Connie, it's whats missing, whether through design or through short sightedness. As I understand it though, it's not just a matter of raising up the other drives to balance the equation. I believe I read somewhere that it works something like taking water from one pail to fill another. Because as there is only so much genetic material to begin with and only so much room allocated for it all to fit, one can't amp one without taking from another. Something like that.
I hope that made some kind of sense. And golly I hope it's right.lol

Essentially, making the best series of compromises to reach the ultimate goal. Same theory for making power with engines. You can't build the power at one point in the RPM band without having it affect a different part of the RPM band.

 Quote: randy allen

.... As I understand it though, it's not just a matter of raising up the other drives to balance the equation. I believe I read somewhere that it works something like taking water from one pail to fill another. Because as there is only so much genetic material to begin with and only so much room allocated for it all to fit, one can't amp one without taking from another. Something like that.
I hope that made some kind of sense. And golly I hope it's right.lol

That's interesting! That maybe needs a new thread!