<img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

But surely a dog that works in 'all prey' hence being flashy in Schutzhund would have a harder time dealing with NVBK? I was under the impression you needed a more civil dog. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" /> Would a smaller, high-drive Czech line dog or something similar fare better?

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"NVBK isn't a prey driven sport."


You've got to be kidding me.

I'm not. If i look what is happening at my club.
3 dogs in competition (one champion cat 2) 1 dog withheld from competion this year due to lack off comfidence off the handler, 1 dog withheld from competition because he would only get a 320/340 out off the possible 400 (mine), one dog that will never get there and a bunch off young prospects for 2007/8/9 seazon. a combined training experience in BR that exceeds 150 years. In this environment the dogs that aren't good enough, miraculose, are all high in preydrive. If BR was preydriven than these dogs would be the ones that went to competition and not the other way around. in BR we only work in prey untill 3/4 months from then on there is no prey to parade around with. you need a killer to compete seriously in BR

Greetings


Johan

Ok, so what drives are the dogs working in after 4 months old?

Post 3 or 4 months?

I cringe as I write this, because there is a small possibility that I may get hammered for it, but I believe the following to be true.

For the obedience and the obstacles, first and foremost I believe the dog becomes CONDITIONED (initially through positive reinforcement, which afterwards also includes corrections...strong ones). A good dog will just do it right after a while. These dogs are VERY hard to find. Genetically (and physically, even at a young age), they are unstoppable powerhouses. So for obedience and obstacles, whatever works (food, play, etc., etc. plus corrections).

For protection and bitework (if you must label a particular set of drives <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/crazy.gif" alt="" /> I'd say pack drive (quality of the bond and tolerance of corrections) and fight drive (the desire to do combat).

Evidently, there is a VERY lengthy process of GRADUAL confidence building, that eventually reaches an almost impossible level.

Very good dogs will have abundant prey drive, and there is no overwhelming need to promote it further. The irrational promotion of prey drive can in fact be a liability. In any event...prey drive turns into fight drive...when the chips are on the table.

I'm ducking behind cover right about now.

Obviously he is talking about the mysterious belgian death drive. Apparently the water over there has a nutrient only found in areas where there are belgian ring clubs. This produces at about the age of 6 months, the death drive. This is also why belgian's had to set up a decoy breeding program to replace their losses. I hear it's going well, and the participants enjoy it. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/tongue.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/tongue.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

OK, so obviously, you belong to a club that is extremely serious about what dogs actually get to trial. I don't know about killers, but I know that they will only let the serious dogs come out to play in the trials and the rest get washed out. Here if we did that we would end up with two clubs in the entire country! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/shocked.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> Someday when I get fabulously rich again, I will come to visit and have fun with your killer dogs.

Eric, since this thread is about NVBK and you're offering very specific recommendations for the kennel that you are a helper for, have they in fact gotten any of their GSD's NVBK titles?
Just wondering...

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I'm just thinking, right...nothing serious yet...but if I were going to do Belgian Ring (not for titling, just training in this fashion) with a German Shepherd, what lines should I go for?

The suggusetions Eric made I think are as good as you'll find in GSD workinglines. Aron and Zidane are known for throwing high-drive pups that are handler hard with high level of aggression. Neither dog or kennels Eric mentioned (Aron is at Jabina Kennels in Denmark or Zidane is at Alabamak9) have in my knowledge tried BR with their progeny. Zidanes sucess in sch is clear. Aron has produced multiple BSP participants and John Jabina has used him as stud to help build his Kennels reputation as producing world class GSD. John Jabina's dogs have excel in high level sch in Europe. John Jabina is/or/has also using Zidane's littermate Zygo as a stud.

Zidane is about 5 1/2 or 6 yrs old. His progeny are just now at the age to title in sch. The most sucessful of his pups that I know of is Hasko Mohnwiese(just turned 3) in Belgium. Hasko recieved his sch3 last year with 99-96-97 292.

If I were to try BR it would be with bloodlines similar to Aron and Zidane. I've seen bloodlines similar to these 2 dogs being used in KNPV.

Robert,
I have to agree with you about NVBK being prey based. The young dogs are brought up in prey (as they should be) to go for the sleeve, when they grow up they still don't get pressure from the decoy and the difference now is the suit they bite on is like leg sleeves and arm sleeves connected by thin material. The dogs also, are required to bite in what I call pressureless areas, the shins, knees to ankles, and forearm, elbow to wrist. A dog is under alot less pressure to bite those areas than say face a man up in the armpit, bi's or Tri's. IMO it's prey in a slightly different form. You have FR style prey, and then you have the as I have heard it quoted "punching bag prey". The decoys offer zero pressure IMO from the man. The dog does not have to fear the man provided he has good nerves. It's like a lion taking down a bigger slower prey, the water bull is not moving fast with quick turns like the gazell, he is slow and cumbersome and just kinda there, and once the lion is on the bull he offers no fight that is still prey IMO because the dog sees "IT" as a weak being it can overcome, so I think the prey is envoked just as if the decoy was doing FR style moving due to the fact that the dog sees the pressureless decoy as prey, and the decoy does not put up a fight that makes him appear to be anymore than prey. I also have a homemade video of Germain Pauwels (NVBK president) in belgium at his club training the "civil" exercise of muzzle object guard. They take a set of overalls and sew on a velcro stip going horizontal across the sternum area, they take a muzzle and cut the end of the muzzle so that the dog has just enough room to open his mouth to pinch, and they take a tug and sew a strip of velcro on the back of it, and velcro the tug across the mans chest. When the decoy gets close the dog is taught to go out and retrieve the tug off the decoys chest. So come trial time when he has on a muzzle and delievers this powerful hit, his prey and play drive has been invoked because that is the exercise that he has been conditioned that he usually gets to snatch his tug from the decoy.

Could be just me but the dogs I have had have bitten as a result of two drives, they either bit out of prey or out of defense, and I don't see decoy pressure at all in NVBK to put the dog in defense sooooo.