Deb, that's a very enlightening post you made. I've been considering adding a FAQ section to my website. Many times I have talked to many people (clients and friends) that have been or are thinking about enrolling in a PetSmart class.

I always worry my response of "their techniques are not effective in the real world" is taken like "well that's her competition... of course she is going to say that."

Would you mind if I used your post as an example of why PetSmart training is not ideal? I'll give you full credit, or I can leave you anonymous. I just think if more owners understand your frustrations as a PetSmart employee, they'd really start second guessing the PetSmart program as a whole... rather than it coming from someone on the outside.

I once had a basic ob class that one of my customers asked about the Gentle Leader. I explained its uses and its drawbacks, but decided to purchase one at PetSmart to bring to the next class, show them for themselves why it's not the best tool, and then return it. Well I actually got CHEWED OUT by the checker for RETURNING IT. She asked me if I needed another size or color... and I just said no, I've been told by my trainer that it's not effective and she just lit up saying how every trainer on the East Coast uses the gentle leader and asked why I would want to inflict great pain onto my dog with other training tools. I later called the manager of that store to explain the dangers of her actions and he gave me a very roundabout explanation.

Although all is not lost because we often call the "previously-trained-by-PetSmart methods" clients our BEST clients because at that point they are so frustrated they are up for anything and listen to our reasoning. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> We have a lot easier time convincing those clients to use a pinch or remote than some of our other clients. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/tongue.gif" alt="" />

To get back to the original post, I've learned a lot over my first two years of being a professional dog trainer. But the main thing I've learned is that is I have SO MUCH MORE to learn. I am upfront and honest with my clients regarding that. I am NOT an almighty better-than-sliced-bread trainer, but I will listen to them, work with them, and approach their training with an open-minded, balanced program that is catered to their dog. I've seen alot, but I haven't seen everything... and I think a sign of a respectable trainer is that they still learn everyday even if they've been training for 30+ years.

I think it was Ed who mentioned how they deal with aggression....

My cousin adopted a collie mix from a local shelter. This shelter must be run by closet PETA freaks, because they are just plain nuts. They have more dogs than any other shelter because NO ONE is good enough to adopt any of their animals. I mean, they sit there for up to a year or more, at times. Anyway, my uncle knew a volunteer, pulled some strings, and brought Simon home. They'd been assured he was just peachy with other dogs. Part of the requirement of adoption is that you take the dog to a petsmart training class and send them the diploma. If this is not done in 6 weeks, they reposses the dog.

Sooo, Simon takes about a day and a half to show he is anything but dog-friendly. He attacked her boyfriend's dog viciously within a week, broke his line (she was outside with him) to eat a small dog walking by. She called Petsmart and told them about his aggression. They said it didn't sound like aggression and to bring him anyway-he had a very sad life and needs to learn how to play nice. She called the shelter, who made her feel like a criminal, and reassured her that he was in no way aggressive.

She borrowed my prong, but was not allowed in with it, to which she explained that he is very strong, and very aggressive to other smaller dogs. There were no small dogs in her particular class. They assured her it would be ok. After a few sessions they thought he was doing just marvelously, but she still had concerns about him at home. She has a 6 yr old daughter, and was concerned that when he's aggressive, he does not focus it only on the object that's causing it. Again, told she's paranoid, knows nothing about dogs, etc.

On the evening of Simon's 'graduation', he got up for no reason that they could see, and mauled her boyfriend's dog, who was sleeping. Her boyfriend tried to break it up, and was bitten completely through his forearm. Completely, as in, matching holes that you could almost see through. She called the shelter and told them what happened. She wasn't being paranoid-after all, he DID get in the middle of a dog fight, but the "transferring" was what concerned her. You can't trust a child not to get in a dog fight if she thinks her dog is going to get hurt. She was accused of all kinds of things she'd done to damage his psyche...then they told her that's why they didn't want to give her a dog anyway.

I think this dog could have been helped-he had MANY excellent qualities, and infinite patience with children, but it needed to be done immediately, and would've taken a dominant dog collar and a short leash attached to someone *very* serious about correcting this behavior. Petsmart only *denied* that this dog had a problem, and when the shelter called for their opinion, insisted that if she'd stop trying to use that barbaric prong that her dog-abusing cousin gave her (yours truly) he wouldn't "get so angry". A gentle-leader would solve these issues. This dog would've broken its neck when a dog walked by if it wore one of these. Sadly, she was not allowed to rehome the dog on her own, and he had to go back to the shelter. She was very concerned that they would not be honest about his issues and someone would get hurt. The Petsmart diploma was used as a "selling" factor for this dog online...

This is the kind of dangerous denial that causes dogs to be returned to shelters several times before they do real damage and are euthanized. I have yet to hear of a dog, no matter how horrendously behaved, that didn't pass a Petsmart obedience class... <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" />

Has anyone on this board ever seriously tried to use a gentle leader on a puppy? Has ANYONE had success with it? I'm not saying it as a skeptic (ha.) but more out of curiosity.

Define success. I used it once on a ginormous, untrainted APBT that I needed to be able to walk for one month. Once he went home, he would probably never be walked again. Very strong dog, very elderly owners. He was exercised in the yard by playing ball. So, I didn't really see it as my problem to train this dog-I thought watching him for a month for free in my own home was good enough, so I took the easy way out and bought a halti. I was not worried about him breaking his neck, because he's not aggressive in the least. Then, I took the cheap way out and returned it once he went home <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />. So, yes. I used it. It worked. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> I do think these can be dangerous, as I've seen aggressive dogs snapping their necks to pull toward another dog. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" /> We won't even start on their complete lack of teaching the dog a damn thing...

Success = results equal to that of a prong collar. i'm not talking about a big strong dog, but if you have a young dog less than a year old that has a relatively soft temprement, can you use a halti to teach the dog anything?

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Success = results equal to that of a prong collar. i'm not talking about a big strong dog, but if you have a young dog less than a year old that has a relatively soft temprement, can you use a halti to teach the dog anything?

I have never used them, but it might be useful for teaching a focus or "look at me" command. As other's have said before, it doesn't actually give the dog any form of correction. As soon as you stop "nagging" the dog by pulling on his halti, he's going to go back to doing what he wants because there is no real discomfort associated with his inappropriate behavior.

IMHO, no. It, by design, prevents pulling; it doesn't TEACH a thing, except that while they're wearing it, they can't pull.

I uaually stay away from halties. IMO they are a mangement tool and nothing more. Once they are taken off the dog will go right back into the previous behvior. At the training facility I used to work at we did use halties as a last resort on a dog with really terrible pulling issue. However the halties were ALWAYS used with a training collar on too so we could also give leash corretions were needed.

I don't completely swear off head halters (either the halti or the gentle leader). They are NOT the best tool in the toolbox, however I have trained a dog that the gentle leader has made it easier (not as a training tool, but as a diversion tool).

She was a smooth-coated collie in a foster home for about a year after being found on the side of the road with her sister as a young puppy. The foster mom made the the mistake of keeping and raising both of them together. Millie (the one I trained) was so obsessed with her sister, but had so much anxiety around other dogs. I trained her in a 32,000 sq. foot building and if her sister walked in a door on the other end she would try desperately to get to her, but if any other dog walked into that building, she would go into a fear aggressive frenzy. So I taught her the commands with no distractions with a pinch, but as soon as there was a dog within 100 ft. of her it was close to impossible to get her attention back onto me. She got to the point in her obedience where you can tell I started to bring her more confidence as a leader, but I still needed help getting her attention away from the other dog(s).

That's where the gentle leader came in. With the help of the gentle leader, I was able to CALMLY divert her head towards me and give her a command and was able to settle her down easier and much quicker without having to use excessive force. After about two weeks of using the gentle leader in this way, I was able to take it off and continue with the pinch.

The only other reason right now I would take it out of the toolbox is if a dog had a trachea problem, and I wanted to avoid the harness. You can teach a dog the commands with it, but it is only a management equipment because the problem is there is no other "tool" that is able simulate the motion of the halter. Where as once your dog is trained under the pinch collar, you can still simulate that correction with the flat collar or fur saver.

To this date (even with my 2 1/2 yr. old malinois), Millie was the biggest training challenge I've encountered and I had to pull out all the stops with her. Instead of having a picture with one of my own dogs on my website, I opted to post a picture with her because she reminds me that this job ain't easy, but it's not impossible either no matter what challenge arises.

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Has anyone on this board ever seriously tried to use a gentle leader on a puppy? Has ANYONE had success with it? I'm not saying it as a skeptic (ha.) but more out of curiosity.

Hey Mike......I think we would have to take a field trip to our local retail chain training classes to really get the answer to that one. After all, they are the experts?