A Leerberg user from the Netherlands put me on to some sites for working Dobes and yes, two grand seemed to be the going price for a good Dobe with SchH titled background. I can't see myself being Dobie-less forever, though.

BTW, thanks, Elly!

Any links? I am working with a dobe that comes from the Netherlands because he won't stop poking his family's nether regions. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> I really like this dog, probably because he bites like a vice.

Something else to watch for in Dobermans is a lot of American breeders promote the Z-factored Dobermans/Albino Dobermans. Not all Z-factored Dobermans are albino either. The Z-factor is the dog's carrying of the albinism gene. There are, as with almost every species, a lot of genetic problems with albino dogs. A good Dobie breeder will NOT promote Z-factored dogs.

Just one more reason to stick with Euro Dobes!!! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

 Quote:

Any links? I am working with a dobe that comes from the Netherlands because he won't stop poking his family's nether regions. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> I really like this dog, probably because he bites like a vice.

The combination of the two is certainly a scary thought. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> Sorry for the frivolous post. Couldn't resist. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Lets say you take your average nice working european dobie (by which I mean, a dog that can work, and isn't exceptionally difficult to find, just, a realistically obtainable dog from europe) and put it next to an average realistically obtainable, but good working GSD also from europe.

Which dog has the higher drive?

Which dog is easier to live with?

If they both have a similar level of drive, does breed affect livability?

Which dog will, on average, be more confident? Will the dobie be "borderline" in comparison to the GSD (or any of the shepherd breeds for that matter) or is a dobie equally capable of doing real-world protection work as the shepherd?

Is the coat the only thing that's turned people off the breed or is this just a quality of dog issue, i.e. would you be hard pressed to find a dobie that can do any serious level of real-world proection work?

If you happen to find a breeder that has a reputation for breeding awesome dobie's - are the odds of getting a good dog out of the litter comparable to a GSD or will a GSD yield a higher average success rate in the breedings?

I've heard nothing but negative commentary about the direction dobie's have headed, which is why I didn't get a dobie, but I would certainly consider it if I ever got a 3rd dog and the odds of getting a truly nice working dobie were in my favor (as much as they can be when it comes to breeding and unpredictable genetics that is).

I have a soft spot for the breed <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

ok this could be a long one......... when you compare shepherd breeds to dobes it is tough. They are very different.
First of all I don't feel that a good Euro working dobie is a difficult thing to find (you just have to know where to look)In fact, I just brought over a female that I bought over a year ago. I opted to have her stay in Europe and finish her IPO exams, (out of 26 dogs entered, only 2 passed... my dobe bitch *highest scores* and a Beauceron)Then I had her bred to a very nice young male (about to test for his IPO2) and I opted to have her whelp her litter there and when the pups were 8 weeks old, I imported her and all the pups. (you should have seen the commotion at the airport! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/crazy.gif" alt="" /> )
About drives... again you are looking at a totally different mindset between dobes and sheps. Dobes are just as capable of doing real world work and in some ways perhaps more so.... dobes are, by nature, more sceptical than sheps. They have a cold arrogance about them, yet are twice the ham at home. Living with both Dobes and GSDs, (and being raised with both - as an infant I had a dobe for a babysitter), all I can say is that they are very different creatures to live with. Dobes are very quirky animals. I find Sheps to be more level. Dobes show way more emotion (dobes actually cry real tears) and are more reactive to loud or bustling households.
In my experience, I have found that when comparing the overall personality and temperament of GSD litter to a dobe litter that there is a more even keel in dobes. Out of my import dobe litter, all of them are very even in temperament except for one female that I still have here because I will only place her into an experienced working home due to her very tough temperament. They are all very confident and stable, but this girl is quick to temper and seems to possess an edge that needs more direction than most average+ people are capable of giving. I have found that I have to be much more cautious about with whom I place my dobes vs. the shepherds. Also dobes do not rehome as easily as shepherds (in terms of buying an adult, regardless of trainig.)
You mentioned coat as a possible factor... Living where I do, I can honestly say that the coat is a consideration, however Euro dobes are not nearly as wimpy as their Americanized counterparts (my favorite bitch is from Russia) This also brings me to what you said about the direction that dobes in north America are heading...... Dobes (and far too many other breeds) for far too many years have been bred by the dozens for the show ring, with little or no concern for longivity and temperament. North American dobes are plagued with health problems due to a popularity surge some 20 odd years ago and the carelessness of some bad breeders in search of the almighty buck. I can only think of a handful of breeders that continued to place emphasis on health and longivity (not to mention temperament) consistantly throughout the years. This is probably why there are so few breeders that have stuck with the breed and continued to be successful. Now we have been left with a refined spindle-of-a-dog (still in the working group) that looks like it would break in two if ever challanged to do any of the field work required in sport.
I feel like I am rambling... sorry. I am very passionate about both Shepherds and Dobermanns, and it is just very difficult to compare the two breeds when one evolved with careful considerations over many years and the other was a genetically engineered breed that came into being through selective combinations of borrowed traits. Are there good dobes capable of working? You bet! Are they hard to find? here .... yes! Luckily with technology, the world has become a smaller place and there are people out there with an unclouded vision of what the breed is really ment to be, and they will not settle for a poor likeness. (this goes for shepherds as well) I find it sad that the US and Canada are some of the only countries that are not members of the FCI, thus allowed to write and rewrite the breed standards as it suits the popular breeders in the show ring. (and then fail to uphold the standards it has just written) The kennel clubs in North America are a joke to many other countries. I personally find that to be embarrassing.
~ just my two cents!

btw Jeff... have fun with that one! Dobes are notorious crotch dogs. hee hee
~ T

I have both dobermanns and GSD, and I think there is always be a different because we are talking about 2 different breeds!

I also thinks that for a good workingline depend where you buy your dog, we worked almost 25 years with both breeds, and especially dobermanns, My personal opinion is, that a lot of crap in the breed is created by breeders, who are looking to much to beauty and less to the sport, here in Holland a guy ask a breeder a well known one to ask a certain stud, because he is very good in sport, he would not do that because he was afraid of brown in his line, and the stud doesnt look so nice, the stud has all his papers healty, ztp IPO3 Schutz3 he has his A korung, so nothing wrong with it, I think as a breeder you have to make a choice or you go for beauty, or you go for work and a little bit less beauty! And I know its diffecult to make that choice because not so many people go for sport.
There is a kennel in Belgium who make that choice, she have 2 different lines, one working and one beauty, and that works really good, her working dogs are very nice!

An other point is that the trainers who are really good let go of the breed, even when your dog is not so good, when you are a good trainer/handler you can do a lot with your dog!

Here in Holland most jugdges started with a dobermann, and when you speak with them, there still like the breed very well!

An other issue here in the Netherlands is, cropping and docking, here its not aloud anymore, when you buy a cropped or docked dobie, you are not able to do examination or competition, so a lot of dogs are coming from east of Europe Rus, poland Czech etc, also a lot of GSD, I don't say its bad but it happened.

may be this studdog is something for you Triecial??
http://i47.photobucket.com/albums/f167/zabar/asco_kor5.jpg

Asco van de Burgstaette, a great dog!

Elly

Yes, he is very crotch oriented. This is something I would like to hear from the "positive" training people. Compulsion comes quite naturally when dealing with this problem. "Ouch,slap. Well don't look at me like that, you did it first" <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

He goes home today, we'll see. The owner is not big on everything this dog is big on. Figures.