What are thoes SchH III dogs doing when they come around the blind and start YIP, YIP, YIP....

This is all beacuse of the sh**** helpers that do not understand drives. This is a learned/taught behavior for the reward. It is not because he is barking in prey. I believe dogs should bark in the blind out of aggression. The ones that go YIP was taught beacuse it was fun for the dog...I YIP and I get the booty. The dogs at National SchH III levels need to see the helpers as a fighting partner...not that if I do this behavior or that behavior I get my booty and run around with it.

yes I have seen dogs that bark when they run

Yes, but I thought now we were talking about dogs at National SchH III levels. If you have a dog that barks when running after the helper then you do have big problems.

(Most play/greeting barks I would consider a prey behavior).

This is just a low level of stimulation. Like your SchH III dog in the blind.

OIr are you trying to tell me you can't tell the difference in the bark when the dog is barking at the local cat vs. a person it doesn't know comming up the driveway?

You hear the different levels of frustration or fear...you can distinguish between them. This has nothing to do with prey. When your dog is barking at the local cat it probably sounds like: BARK, BARK, BARK, BARK. You open the gate and he will probably shut up and chase the cat. Depends on how much courage he has to deal with the cat when/if he catches him. When the stranger walks up most dogs bark like: BOWO WO WO WO WO. You open the gate and the dog stands there still going WO WO WO WO I'm scared, please shut the gate back before that stranger gets any closer.

I have seen young dogs that start protection work...the moment you start throwing the rag around they start barking (usually with a loose line)...this is not prey, this is nerve problems. He might even bite the rag when it comes close enough, but it just shows that he as enough confidence to over-ride his defense.

Steve Cobb

 Quote:

Originally posted by SteveCobb:
I believe dogs should bark in the blind out of aggression. The ones that go YIP was taught beacuse it was fun for the dog...I YIP and I get the booty. The dogs at National SchH III levels need to see the helpers as a fighting partner...not that if I do this behavior or that behavior I get my booty and run around with it.

What behavior you personally prefer isn't the topic. You said it yourself - Yip becuz it's fun, I get my booty... Bingo: PREY DRIVE.

We all would agree that prey behavior is exemplified by the dog chasing something that is moving away; however, when that behavior is blocked, when he's not able to perform the behavior that his drive tells him to do, then he will find other outlets for his drive and emotions. That's where the bark comes from. It begins as mainly frustration of the prey behavior; however, thru association, he learns that his bark can cause the prey activity to begin. Thru classical conditioning, the emotions that are attached to the 'typical' prey behavior of chasing and biting become associated with the activity that immediately precedes the movement of the prey. So in his mind, his emotions, his "drives", he is in prey while he is barking for the man to move. Over time, the frustration disappears becuz the dog has learned how to control the situation and to 'force' the man to initiate prey movements.


"(Most play/greeting barks I would consider a prey behavior)."

 Quote:

Originally posted by SteveCobb:
This is just a low level of stimulation. Like your SchH III dog in the blind.

It's not necessarily low stim or drive. Prey/play can be an EXTREMELY intense drive for some dogs; it is however low stim for defense, but that doesn't mean the dog isn't feeling an intense emotion.

 Quote:

Originally posted by SteveCobb:
I have seen young dogs that start protection work...the moment you start throwing the rag around they start barking (usually with a loose line)...this is not prey, this is nerve problems.

The majority of the time, it is simply frustration from the blocked prey behavior that we are stimulating, but not allowing the dog to express.

Took you two long enough!!!!!!

Not so hard. Barking in the blind is a constructed and as such it is a learned behavior.

Depending on what the dog has learned will determine how they see the guy in the blind. This will determine the dog's bark.

Dogs do bark for prey and for defense reasons. I would argue the barking for prey in the blind is closer to herding behavior. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

Prey lock/focus they don't bark.

I agree with Steve. Dogs DO NOT bark when they know they will catch their prey. On the other hand, when you restrain him, the frustration kicks in and the dogs bark according to how bad they want the prey. Hunting dogs are the same way. During the hunt, the predator is silent. Then the prey escapes up the tree and the frustration kicks in(ruf ruf ruf).

You never see a dog bark during a runaway bite. But if the bite is in the blind, the dog has been trained to restrain himself. The frustration of being held back causes the bark. But when the dog is free to bite with no control, you don't get a frustrated response.

Notice also when you do agitation. The dog barks like crazy as he's being held back because he REALLY wants this bite. But when you let go, he's free, the frustration is gone, and you get a silent bite.

Originally posted by Mike Sanchez:
I agree with Steve. Dogs DO NOT bark when they know they will catch their prey. On the other hand, when you restrain him, the frustration kicks in and the dogs bark according to how bad they want the prey. Hunting dogs are the same way. During the hunt, the predator is silent. Then the prey escapes up the tree and the frustration kicks in(ruf ruf ruf).


Notice also when you do agitation. The dog barks like crazy as he's being held back because he REALLY wants this bite. But when you let go, he's free, the frustration is gone, and you get a silent bite. ruf ruf ruf is again a learned behavior be it blind or tree.

The dog barks (ideal reason) to push..ie scare the pray, into the game or back into the chase.

Most true frustration signs are coupled with dirty bites. But most clean dogs are not frustrated so mush as primed while herding/pushing the decoy. It is there job they know it and they like the end result.

Phew! Guys,

Looks like everything had been answered in good time. Lee has put things in perfect understandable order and must thank Steve too for a frank debate. Seams that VanCamp was under restraints and luckily the decoy was moved away fast before he let lose his bites.... <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

To come back to Bet's question of should this behaviour be because of hormonal changes? My frank opinion is that it should not be that detrimental changes. If hormonal causes, then it will go away after the heat but if that behaviour stays its the genes thing.

Or maybe the bitch was trying to pick up some studs......heat drive???? <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

I personally know of a dog that barks while biting.. while retreiving even... very excessive example, but they are out there.

This dog, when trying to initiate a retreive game, will go grab a ball/tug/dumbell, come into a "front" and bark while holding the retreive item!

when really amped up, she will bark and scream while on a bite... a nice bite... usually occurs after doing a H&B (probably from the frustration build up?) but it is funny as shit to see..

but not to her handler!!! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Looks like the majority agrees that H&B is a learned behavior and since the teaching of this behavior starts at a relatively young age, prey/play mode is the appropriate method. I can also see Steve’s point in wishing to see more serious H&B out of SchHIII national competitors. Some dogs may eventually reach this point on their own, others may need some tweaking in defense.

I attended a national level competition once (in Canada) where the helper was instructed by the judge not to have any eye contact when in the blind (the helper was actually facing the blind). Half of the dogs washed out--they came around the blind very enthusiastically, got totally confused and returned to the handler. In this case a little “YIP YIP, gimme that sleeve” would’ve at least kept them in competition.

Ideally the bark in the blind is more than a prey bark.That does go back to training, like how long the dog was worked in only prey drive. The defensive work should begin when the dog has reached mental maturity.If someone disagrees with that Id like to hear their reasoning. Steve says that dogs will not bark when they are engaged in the actuall prey drive. Not true.. If youve ever hunted with terriers they wont make a sound until the chase is on.The trick is findind ones that will keep barking after the prey is treed.