I agree with you Howard. I just went over the Building Drive tape and Ed put it so well: Teaching the out is the easy part but teaching the grip and keeping it is the difficult part. In my opinion, I wouldn't start teaching the out until well after the dog has a great grip.

It seems to me that teaching a proper bite is pretty easy. It's also easy to teach an out. The hard part is to get a clean out and, at the same time, to keep a good bite. Most techniques involve putting conflict into the situation. The dog wants to bite and the handler wants him to stop biting.

And so compulsion, tricks and all sorts of other things are introduced. But there needn't be a problem if you approach the situation with the right understanding of the dynamics and drives involved and how you can use them to your advantage.

The introduction of the conflict results in the use of all sorts of tools. I've heard of one trainer who uses a gold club shaft smashed across the dog's muzzle to get a dog to release the bite. I pray he never does that in my presence. I won't be responsible for what happens to him next, but that's another story. I know several trainers who use a cattle prod to blast the dog off the bite. Interestingly that same trainer thinks that an Ecollar is barbaric!

Those methods try to overpower the dog in an effort to get him to stop doing something that they've spent weeks or months to get him to do. This to me, seems silly.

If you an convince the dog that there is something better for him to do than continue to bite, you can get him to stop biting very easily. This is a simple matter of using his own desire to be part of a pack, convincing him that he's the #2 dog in the pack (you're the #1). It's important that he NOT think he's the #3 or #4 dog, he must believe that he's the #2.

Part of this is having the correct relationship with the dog. That should be one of mutual respect and trust. It's not going to work if you have to force him into a subordinate position and he obeys out of a fear of getting corrected. This is not to say that a dog trained with compulsion is afraid, it's to say that he's obeying to avoid a correction, not because there's something "for the good of the pack" that needs doing.

When you teach the out this way, it's amazingly simple to get him to stop biting when you want it.

It also seems to me that people who spend months teaching a dog to bite but don't teach the out, are opening themselves up to massive liability. Can you imagine telling a jury, "I didn't want to inhibit his drives, so I never taught him to release a bite?"

I think the out should be taught before the bite so that if the dog happens to make up his own mind that it's time to bite, when a stranger comes to the door, for example, you can stop him.

Most people have done this but don't realize it. They teach the out as a separate command that means "stop biting" when they already have a (usually) solid command that will accomplish the same thing, the recall. For those who compete a couple of more steps need to be introduced but those are small step compared to teaching the out by itself.

James, the recall is usually one of the first commands that is taught to a puppy or a new dog that someone gets. It calls the dog away from distractions, danger, or anything else, and has him coming to the handler. Usually it's the best proofed command.

To most people the "out" command means just stop biting.

I've seen many dogs that won't respond to an out command, drop off the bite and return to the handler when given a recall command. I think it's because most trainers proof it very well and work it a lot around many different distractions. Also, there's little conflict associated with it. Once the dog is responding well to the recall command, it's a simple matter of getting him to perform whatever movement you want, sit, down or anything else, once he's stopped biting. It can be done in a couple of sessions if you teach him that stopping biting just means that the handler has something that's more important for him to do.

I like to use four decoys for this; it can be done with as few as two, but it takes longer and is harder. If you want more details of this (I'm a bit short of time right this minute) let me know.

I use an Ecollar to teach and proof the recall but any technique that works well can be used. You can see the exact step–by–step method that I use on Linda Guidry's website at

http://www.finographics.com/schutzhund/obedience/ecollarwork.html

I use the Hierarchy of Toys to proof the recall.

at ed's seminar last weekend, bernhard mentioned several times the problems associated with out training. he cautioned people not to ask their dog to out in routine situations. the out should not be anticipated. it should be a surprise. if you ask your dog to out everytime you call him to you, pretty soon he will start avoiding you, running away with the toy, refusing to release, tugging, growling, crying, re-gripping and a host of other problem behaviours that destroy the grip and cause problems between you and your dog. the building drive focus and grip video touches on outting, but i believe ed is planning on releasing a video dedicated to the out very soon. (please hurry) i am not an authority on what you should do with your dog, but i can offer advice on what not to do. with my old dog (no longer training) i made every imaginable mistake and relied on the "expertise" of people who should have their collective butts kicked. consequently, she developed some really serious problems with outting and handler sensitivity. bernhard's method of taking your dog in your arms, stroking him, running with the prey and making your dog feel comfortable next to you does work. the dog no longer anticipates the out, they become more happy to work and it resores good feelings between you and your dog. when i first trained my old dog, we were using the choking method. (by the collar, feet off the ground) this is the type of thing bernhard calls "sh_t" training. and it is. the person helping you with training thinks their time is more valuable than your dog's education. don't do like i did by being gullible and doing everything you are told. you know your dog. if something doesn't seem like the right thing to do.....don't do it. find another way. good luck <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

patricia powers wrote: at ed's seminar last weekend, bernhard mentioned several times the problems associated with out training. he cautioned people not to ask their dog to out in routine situations.

LC: I don't know what a "routine situation" is and probably have never encountered one. I out my dogs from bites during training and when I was working a dog on the street, from real bites on crooks because it was the safe way to take him into custody. It allowed me to stay behind cover and concealment call the dog away from the crook and then give him voice commands that ensured my safety, that of my dog and the backup officers that were present.

Patricia powers wrote: the out should not be anticipated. it should be a surprise. if you ask your dog to out everytime you call him to you, pretty soon he will start avoiding you, running away with the toy, refusing to release, tugging, growling, crying, re-gripping and a host of other problem behaviours that destroy the grip and cause problems between you and your dog.

LC: I agree that the out should be a surprise and not be anticipated. Perhaps the problems you describe are the result of doing it too often the way that Mr. Flinks does it. None of these problems occur the way I teach the out. It sounds as if Mr. Flinks has found a way to lower the conflict involved in the customary way of teaching and keeping the out with toys, but still the conflict is present. There's no conflict with my method and therefore those problems don't arise. I've never been to a Flinks seminar or even seen one of his tapes, I’m just commenting based on what you wrote.

Patricia powers wrote: bernhard's method of taking your dog in your arms, stroking him, running with the prey and making your dog feel comfortable next to you does work. the dog no longer anticipates the out, they become more happy to work and it resores good feelings between you and your dog.

LC: I've not felt a need to "restore good feeling between (me) and (my) dog. There aren't any bad feelings between us in the first place. I am the leader and he is the #2 animal in the pack. He has his own duties and responsibilities. We have a relationship of mutual trust and respect.

Patricia powers wrote: when i first trained my old dog, we were using the choking method. (by the collar, feet off the ground) this is the type of thing bernhard calls "sh_t" training. and it is.

LC: If you've been choking the dog, you've been doing it wrong. The proper way is to lift the dog and push into the bite. You don't choke the dog you gag him. If you cut off his air all you do is make him more resistant to let go. There's a time that this is appropriate and a time when it's not. It's hardly "shit" training; it's just another technique that gets the dog off the bite and keep him focused on the decoy.

Lou wrote " We have a relationship of mutual trust and respect."

Probably more important than all the training you do,without it you have nothing.
Paul

okay....mike was talking about "beginner dogs" in what i understood to be sport training. my response was made with that in mind. i don't believe we would be using the same techniques on a sport dog that you would use to train your service dogs or vice versa.

Patricia,

In my opinion, no. An out is an out. Particularly if it comes to a chewy bite. In a sport dog it means a couple of points in a PSD (or PPD) it could mean a law suit, an unintended bite, or other serious problems.

Richard... you are arguing something for nothing.

The Flinks way doesn't leave you with a dog that won't out, it is merely a way to keep the dog from anticipating an out in training, so the dog holds until told to out. Period. The dogs are not a liability.. they still OUT on command.

Lou, a lot of the expressions "good feelings" etc would make a lot more sense to you if you have seen the tapes or worked with Bernhard. It in no way signifies that he makes 'bad feelings' in the dog on in the training program.. just some editorial comments from him while he is handling and why he does what he does.