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I should also mention that I am of the opinion that there is no fight drive.

15-20 years ago it was desirable to have a dog that was balanced in prey/defense while on the bite. now that balance is called "fight drive" depending on who you ask. donn yarnall says it's the dogs drive to detain or drive off. ed and his followers say it's this mystical aggression that only they can see, but it's interesting to note that ed never mentions "fight drive" in any of his first tapes that he put out in the 80's. did it not exist then? was he not qualified to see it back then? or is it a fabrication of the GSD breeders to try and cheap shot higher prey breeds that are taking money out of their pockets?

just some food for thought. i have obviously watched all of ed's early tapes and learned a great deal when i was starting out from them. i don't question or discount ed's experience in the dog training field but there should be room for intellegent debate. that is all i'm trying to do...


Ed's comments edited into this posts

I will start with a comment that people should go back up this thread and read what I edited into Pattricks post.

In regard to Mr Martens sarcastic comments in this post - the fact is there are not a lot of dogs that contain fight drive - in fact very few. During the 1980's I never saw a dog with what today I would consider fight drive. You dont see them in sport training. When I started to get personally involved with training and handling police service dogs I started to see (and own) the oocasional dog that had true firght drive.

Fight drive is not s mystical concept. The people who POO POO that it exists are sport people who have never seen it.

Being a smart ass and getting sarcastic on this board will get you no where other than off the board. There are plenty of web boards on the Internet where one can talk trash and pass along unfounded opinions on dog training - this is not one of them. Mr Martens will be spending his time on those boards and not here.

Jeff….. from my experience you see a three or four distinct reactions from a dog on their first street bite. I believe these reactions are based on training and genetics.

Reaction #1: It all comes together textbook. In 11 years I have yet to see more than a hand full of dogs that got it perfect on the fist try.

Reaction #2: The dog engages like a champ…. Is thrown for a loop by the new taste and feel of his opponent, releases then reengages like a veteran.

Reaction #3: The dog gets confused by the lack of equipment and refuses to engage or needs encouragement from the handler to commit.

Reaction #4: Total shut down.

One of our training group dogs got his first street bite about 6 months ago. The handler was fighting with a wanted subject too far from his vehicle for the door popper to activate. The bad guy ran into a wooded area and hid in a creek. Following a track and an area search the dog located the bad guy n the creek.

The dog bit the suspect in the trapezius muscle. The handler said the bite was very full but almost immediately the dog released. The dog took a step back and reengaged the suspect and actually began to pull him out of the creek. This dog has been through a ton of muzzle work.

On the flip side…. A handler down the road sent his dog on an apprehension from an armed robbery. The dog ran along side the suspect for three blocks before being called back by the handler. In speaking with the handler after the incident you found out that muzzle work was non existent at their department’s training routine.

The right dog and the right training should get you reaction #1 or #2. The other two reactions are what you need to worry about. With a good training program and a well selected dog, it’s fairly easy to figure out what’s going to happen. Plus…. When you take a street worthy dog out of a training environment and into the “real world” they seem to display a very different personality.

Thanks for responding. I appreciate it.

Howard - I was not clear in mypost. What I meant about training was directed towards teachin a police dog HOW TO GRIP AND RELEASE AND REGRIP. This is not a difficult thing for a good dog to pick up - its simply a matter of getting the dog on the helper (in the beginning it can be an arm) then applying pressure to the dog with the other arm or the leg - when the dog switches the helper and handler verbalize the move.

Dogs that lock on and won't change may be locked in prey - they may need some pain to switch. That work is beyond the scope of an email.

Now - back to fight drive - I will say that experience plays a part in this. While fight drive cannot be trained into a dog, expereince certainly helps develop and bring it out. Fact is a dog either has it or he does not have it.

Not sure if this answers your question.

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i don't question or discount ed's experience in the dog training field but there should be room for intellegent debate. that is all i'm trying to do...

I dont understand either why the topic is not debateble. I thought thats what a forum was all about. Not everyone has to agree with the other, but its sometimes food for thought. Raising a disscusion can be very interesting, and being "not experienced to comment" seems to be a bit rude to me to put a stamp on someone whos just asking a question.. How are people going to learn if their posts get edited when they ask questions or the threads get closed. This is the not the ice age here.Everyone has to learn somehow whether through reading, commenting or saying something they believe is right, and being asked why they believe that. Through disscusion they can either stick to their original opinion or think about the idea's the other person has written..........good way of learning I would say.

I have always enjoyed Tim's posts here........pity.

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There are plenty of web boards on the Internet where one can talk trash and pass along unfounded opinions on dog training - this is not one of them. Mr Martens will be spending his time on those boards and not here.

He is also on my forum and sorry to say but thats NOT TRASH!

Strange also that we all have an edit button but we cant edit ourselves.

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pass along unfounded opinions on dog training

yes but who decides whats unfounded or not? Some people who have been in training for years get rusty and stuck in their training methods. Its the people with fresh idea's who supply the new possibilities and training methods. Because someone has what they call knowledge doesnt mean they know the B all and end all of training.........I know because I have met plenty of them. So lets go with some new idea's that will help everyone.

Ed, a ppd dog defending its family against a violent attacker IN ITS HOME is NOT going to be held to the same standard as a PSD apprehending a non-violent car thief fleeing a stolen vehicle. A PSD should apprehend the subject and no more provided the subject doesn't become violent with the dog. A PPD dog defending its family in its home against a violent home-invader is less restricted.

On another note, Ed, you can still get your point across without publically insulting and demeaning well-intentioned and respectful posters. Just because you own the board doesn't make it right and it reflects negatively on yourself and not just the person you are mistreating. This board is better when ALL posters are respectful of each other.

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ed and his followers say it's this mysticalaggression that only they can see, but it's interesting to note that ed never mentions "fight drive" in any of his first tapes that he put out in the 80's. did it not exist then? was he not qualified to see it back then? or is it a fabrication of the GSD breeders to try and cheap shot higher prey breeds that are taking money out of their pockets?

If you think the first step in an intelligent debate is to start it ad hominem, that’s up to you, but I truly doubt Mr. Martens was being sincere, and he could have very well started a discussion without trying to make Ed look like crooked breeder. This topic still seems to be open, just not for trolling, same as always...

Post deleted by Ed Frawley

This is getting rediculous and out of hand. Apparently some people live to argue and make comments when they have no idea what they are talking about. If anyone wishes to make snide comments please do it on another board.

I am closing this until Ed is able to respond.

Patrick Hennigan
Moderator