I understand the opposition of the "stick" part, but the "clatter" part is to rev up the dog. Right?

Depends on if the dog was trained with clatter sticks. A dog trained with the stick from early puppyhood will associate the stick with a bite and the clatter will put him into drive.

However, take an average SchH dog and use the clatter stick on him for the very first time and he'll be uncomfortable at first, trying to figure out what's going on.
After he's seen it a few times he'll make the association and go into drive with the sound.
Simple training concept.

The clatter stick can make a real impact on a dog who hasn't seen it before. As you said earlier, the clatter stick is usually "an article of opposition" while the Whip is usually used to rev up to the dog. It depends on the way the dog has been trained. For French Ring dogs, they are pretty much raised with the clatter stick so for them it is a sure way to get the dog into drive. For my dog the whip was introduced during defensive work and usually without any other equipment - and he associates it with the need to be more serious and causes him to bark and get in the decoy's face.

If a dog hasn't seen a clatter stick before it can make a big difference - even in dogs that are relatively sure and confident otherwise. If someone is taking their dog to a competition where they use clatter sticks, take a little time to show him what they are <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

 Quote:

Depends on if the dog was trained with clatter sticks. A dog trained with the stick from early puppyhood will associate the stick with a bite and the clatter will put him into drive.

However, take an average SchH dog and use the clatter stick on him for the very first time and he'll be uncomfortable at first, trying to figure out what's going on.
After he's seen it a few times he'll make the association and go into drive with the sound.

Simple training concept.

<img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smirk.gif" alt="" /> Will all i can say is LOL <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> -HA HA HA... <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />someone once said that ignorance is bliss, especially if you master it. Therefor i wont even bother to reply to anything you say anymore, its just not worth it - <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />ha ha. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/tongue.gif" alt="" />

The fact is when a whip or a clatter stick is used to much it becomes a prey item to the dog. When dogs have had to much of either they switch a dog into prey drive - we see this with dogs that are locked in prey.

If you want to see if your dog has fallen into this trap simply have your helper put the dog in drive with the stick or the whip. Then stand in front of the dog and toss the whip (or clatter stick) 5 or 6 feet to the side.

Dogs that have had to much will move away from the helper and focus on the stick laying on the ground - for these dogs the whip has become the ball or prey item.

I have a friend who breeds Mals in Europe, he competes in the Belgium Ring where the stick is heavily used. He starts using the clatter stick on litters as soon as they can get up and run around. He uses it in play and even when he feeds them.

You can take one of these 8 week old pups and not use the clatter stick around it for 2 years (I have seen this done) and then let it hear the clatter - the dog immediately goes into prey drive - usually a hectic prey drive.

I would never recommend a new police K9 handler try and train a service dog to remove a whip - or weapon from a suspects hand.

No problem, Reiner, it's always a chuckle to see your comments, it's funny to see that training that was abandoned in the 1960's in the U.S. after being proven ineffective still is used in third-world countries.

Feel free not to reply to me anymore, but I'll still be pointed out your archaic and usually incorrect training statements.

Ya'll might consider reviewing your training methods so ya'll can jump up to the standards of oh, say, 1970.... <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

The whip???
What is its purpose in protection training?? That entirely depends on who is wielding it.

I like to give it to people to make them flop around when they don't have a clue what being a decoy is all about <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

But, the puepose for me is to impose a threat upon the dog, manipualte the drives of the dog and prevent them from being simply a prey monster. The whip alone does not do this it is used in conjunction with body language moveemnt and lack of movement.
A crutch...nope....a tool yes.
The stick can be use in much the ssame way....I seldom use the clatter stick just occasionally as a new experience for the dog. Other things used to oppose the dog should enter into training as well. But, these items aren't the same as the stick and the whip in their application.

Besides a prey drive tool and an article of opposition, the whip can also be used to teach a dog NOT to spin while being agitated; not to turn his back on the decoy; to increase the defensive intensity; to increase possesiveness of an item, and to increase entry power.

< smacks head >
Andres, that's an excellent point about using the whip for the spinning dogs!!

For those of you that haven't seen it, some dogs do a spin during a bark & hold ( it's a displacement behavior from some high-drive dogs ) and the whip allows you to irritate the dog during the spin as a reminder not to take his eyes off you ( or something negative happens )

That's a good use of the whip where it is the best tool for the job.

Thanks to all who replied. I got alot out of this thread!