Quote:

.....I wish that I could start training dogs as puppies, but that's usually not possible with the dogs that I train and sell for serious work.

Even though my training is on a level many rungs below the training you and Jim do, I wish that everyone understood the worlds of difference between training an adolescent or adult, in whose early training you had no hand at all, and training from puppyhood. It's true of pet dogs and general obedience, too.

Connie,
I always try to start off with a puppy, but that's always a crap shoot ( this is the 4th Fetz that I've had, the other three all scrapped out by age one ).

Jim and I are having a good PM exchange over this topic, as his experiences match mine to a "T".

And I think everyone involved in this discussion understands the difference in training from puppyhood on versus the training of a green dog.

Good discussion so far!

 Quote:

......I always try to start off with a puppy, but that's always a crap shoot ( this is the 4th Fetz that I've had, the other three all scrapped out by age one ).

Jim and I are having a good PM exchange over this topic, as his experiences match mine to a "T".

And I think everyone involved in this discussion understands the difference in training from puppyhood on versus the training of a green dog.....Good discussion so far!

Yes, I see what you're saying. My comment didn't really belong in this thread -- it was about both owner/handlers who base their training assessments and opinions on their experiences with raising their own dogs from puppyhood on up, and trainers who base generalizations on limited experience.

I bow out -- I was smarting from someone's else's "never" statement on another thread. The word "never" is a tricky trap. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/crazy.gif" alt="" />

I'm talking about situations where the dog does know. But just the same, I prefer to control the level of compulsion anyway. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

I'm just an enthusiast and by no means a pro at this but I would encourage you to keep an open mind and check with some of the other trainers regarding this method. I have the impression that the dog does NOT know that the correction is not coming from the handler. I agree with you, for what that's worth, that I don't want a helper to be able to out my dog. So this method might help you. But again, I would recommend that you talk to some of the pros like Will. Good luck! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Patrick is mentioning on an "out" used for a collar-wise dog ( good memory there, dude! ) that requires a team approach during the bite work.
It takes a handler that is willing to do his part, the correct equipment, and a decoy with the speed of a cobra and three arms to do everything that he needs to do....

Done correctly ( aye, that's the meat of the matter...) the dog doesn't know that the correction is coming from the decoy.
This method works well when you're trying to correct an outing problem in a crowded area ( close to the blind in SchH, or the building exercise in ASR, for examples )

It requires practice, excellent communication between the decoy and the handler, plus the ability to set up the situation and plan for it correctly ( plus super-decoy as mentioned above )

Looks like a fun post to jump into.
In a perfect world with perect dogs and rearing practices an out would be a simple thing where compulsion is rarely needed except at the stages where a service dog is being prepped for real world dep;loyments and reliability in a changing environment becomes the issue.
I have had the oportunity to rear dogs that have spent whole careers through retirement as police dogs. If done right the out is taught from the start. I teach it right along with the basics of grip development and rarely does compulsion come along...well until at some point the youngster says NO! and of course I say not w/ me as your boss you may never say NO!. In fact I set up the event in a few different ways quite early on. It sticks with the dog pretty much for life as long as the handler is well versed in the basic concepts.
The real problems occur with the "used" dogs we obtain for police work which is a vast majority of them. Out problems or just general obedience problems have to be dealt with on a case by case basis.
There are some fundamental issues in regards to the the release (the police equivilant of an "out").
First is proper drive balance, second is obedience being secure on the dog...a balance between drive and discipline..so that there is little to no resistance to obedience, the dog sees only its advantage through complying.
Once this stage is set the release tends to be fairly easy even with some pretty difficult creatures.
Now occasionally there is the ONE w/ a history you can only guess and shutter at. Then it is sometimes the role of the instructor to create a new behavior to replace one the dog has inadvertantly been allowed to acheive satisfaction from (in this case kicking the decoys butt instead of releasing).
This sometimes takes creativity and evne all those things people say they don't like. At this point you are in a must do situation and decoy corrections, avoidance training, etc. needs to be employed to break the pattern so you can reutrn to classic dog training.
There may also be the dog or two out there that simply hasn't the temperment to release. These dogs may be taught to let go in a very choreographed situation but probably aren't suitable for street deployment...so why bother.

Just a note. In this thread decoy corrections have been mentioned. As usual, the thoughts were that this is innapropriate for a street dog. Hummm, then do you also think Konrad Most was full of bunk??? That the German Zoll didn't know what they were doing??? The subject of decoy corrections is a long and difficult one to master but I can tell you that when done right the quality of the dogs for service work is very very high. Dispite the anthropomorphising that handlers do about it.

With some dogs, (not puppies) their level of commitment to biting a tug vs. biting a person in a suit, is SO different - it's so much higher - that the command "OUT" or whatever you use to get a release, stands NO chance of being generalized (taught) motivationally...from the tug to the man. NO chance. And therefore it must be taught and enforced by means of compulsion.

Compulsion simply means initially introducing discomfort (the level of which depends on the dog) via prongs, ecollars, or other tools, to induce the change in behavior (letting go), followed by a reward (bite again).

This basic structure is the basis for introducing other obedience commands between letting go and getting a new bite.