To the type of trainers who don't believe in corrections at all, the dominant dog collar type of correction and the slamming on the ground would both be seen in the same light. What makes the hanging correction, better or more politically correct than what Judy's trainer did? I'm not asking this to be smart ***, or from a judgemental standpoint, I'm honestly curious.

I've heard so many different things regarding these types of corrections I'm honestly confused. One trainer wrote on another board that he had a client with a very big dog that tried to bite people, and did bite people for no reason. He said the dog tried to bite him, and he beat the living blank out of it. Problem solved. I've also heard similar things, and do remember seeing hanging dogs many years ago. It's no prettier than seeing a dog get beat, but I do understand that dogs can become dangerous if allowed to go on with their ways, so I'm not going to judge it. I'm more interested in learning.

What would the proper procedure have been for Judy to follow?

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In answer to your question, no I don't have to take him to that class. The trainer holds many classes (private and group) but from the sounds of everyone's post, I shouldn't use her at all!?!

If the environment you describe is accurate (that this is not a treat-based class and your instructor is empowered enough by the trainees to physically hurt their dogs for disobedience), my guess is not many people here would advise going back there. I would have a problem watching anybody doing that to any dog, let alone my own. I wasn't there but what you describe, if it is accurate, is a very bad place to get your dog excited about anything. JMO.

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You are all saying what she (and I) did was wrong but what should we have done at that precise moment??? Put him in the car?? Tie him to a tree and ignore him and the momentary bad behavior?? HELP! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" />

It doesn't sound like your dog truly knows the command well enough to comply to it. I'd start over in a quiet, positive environment with motivational training. Again, JMO. I think all that was appropriate at that precise moment was realizing that your dog was not ready for distance/distraction proofing. Others would probably advocate a correction here but I certainly wouldn't, not in the environment you describe. I'd just get the dog out of the environment and give him a chance to start over.

By the way, I don't think this sounds like a dominance/aggression thing. I think the dog is scared. I'd start with the Basic Ob video. And let one of the nice, laid back, low-drive Mals on this board sub for your dog at the next class. To Al's point, I think your instructor might benefit from trying to bully around something that could alpha roll HIM. I'd like the video, should that happen.

As someone who is usually immersed in basic first-training (although in my case, it's generally with untrained adults), I couldn't agree more with Woody's comments. Also, what Diana said about QUOTE: Can you work him under increasing distractions outside the class? It sounds like you're making the jump from easy-as-pie to incredibly difficult with no middle ground. END QUOTE

I honestly believe that all your questions will be answered clearly if you get that Basic Ob DVD and really watch the whole thing, including the parts about the unfairness to the dog when he's corrected for not performing a behavior he doesn't yet understand - *fully* understand.

I really believe that at that point you'll have the basic understanding to decide for yourself who should train your dog, and how.

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To the type of trainers who don't believe in corrections at all, the dominant dog collar type of correction and the slamming on the ground would both be seen in the same light. What makes the hanging correction, better or more politically correct than what Judy's trainer did? I'm not asking this to be smart ***, or from a judgemental standpoint, I'm honestly curious.

I've heard so many different things regarding these types of corrections I'm honestly confused. One trainer wrote on another board that he had a client with a very big dog that tried to bite people, and did bite people for no reason. He said the dog tried to bite him, and he beat the living blank out of it. Problem solved. I've also heard similar things, and do remember seeing hanging dogs many years ago. It's no prettier than seeing a dog get beat, but I do understand that dogs can become dangerous if allowed to go on with their ways, so I'm not going to judge it. I'm more interested in learning.

What would the proper procedure have been for Judy to follow?

Again, I don't think the situation Judy is describing is within 5,000 miles of the anecdotes you've listed. New owner, younger dog, abusive instructor, uninterested group of owners, chaotic environment, no treats.

I'm fine with a correction for unacceptable behavior and I would level the hell out of my dog if she looked crossways at one of my kids. What I wouldn't do is reinforce terror in a terrified young dog by letting an instructor turn him into a punching bag. Or letting him stay in an environment where that was allowed. This does not seem that ambiguous to me.

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........ I was under the assumption that by 13 months old, he should be able to handle distractions <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" />. .....

I hadn't noticed this earlier.

"Handling distractions" isn't age-related; it's training-related. JMO.

Oh. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/blush.gif" alt="" />. Good God above, my poor dog <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />. Well, it's back to Kindergaraten for me! Thank you Connie!

He may have snarled at you because he thought the correction unfair because he was asked to do too much. Work him inside without distraction until he is 100%, then inside with some distraction (radio, tv, other person, etc) then outside with little distraction, then outside with a dog in the vicinity (maybe you can find a well trained one from class?), and so on, starting with the dog far away and working up until the dog is quite close (this is why the other dog must also be well behaved!). Work up on downs from one minute to a few minutes, slowly working up to a half hour. Make sure the dog has had some exercise prior to the training, not so much that he's pooped and uninterested, but enough that the edge has been taken off his energy level.

I also wouldn't go back to this trainer. Find one who is not afraid of corrections but implements smarter, fairer corrections. Maybe find a smaller group class with serious owners. The fact that she talked you out of treats isn't too cool. The idea with treats and training is like a paycheck for work. You want to use what works well for your dog, be it praise only (rare), toys, or treats. When your dog fully understands the commands and performs well under distractions, you can vary the reward, and in your case you can treat the dog here and there, to keep him guessing that maybe the treat will come now, maybe later, but no matter what giving praise for a job well done.

But as to using a dominant dog collar rather than a prong for handler-aggression (which I don't even think would be necessary with Judy's dog, since he seems to be a soft, low-drive, clingy & possibly nervous animal):

Prong collars over-stimulate some dogs & ramp UP whatever drive is motivating them at the moment -- a harsh correction from a prong at the wrong instant may actually trigger or exacerbate an attack on the handler...

But using a dominant dog collar (despite the fact that "hanging" may not be too pretty) takes the drive right OUT of a dog & teaches him that YOU are holding all the cards (without injury to the animal OR anyone else, when it's done safely & correctly!)...

Hope that helps <:-)

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Oh. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/blush.gif" alt="" />. Good God above, my poor dog <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />. Well, it's back to Kindergaraten for me! Thank you Connie!

Don't forget that dogs live in the now! You're asking questions and formulating training ideas........ GOOD! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> Now, don't feel guilty and allow that to affect your calm pack leadership; just move on. You got some really good feedback here, IMO. Now that you have the info, you can use it. You didn't have it until you went looking for it, right?

So no beating yourself up. JMO! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

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.....this all happened with the dog being given a "Stay" command <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" /> ! He knows "Stay", I assure you. He's choosing not to. Granted, I now understand the distractions are probably the problem in that the level of distraction is too high right now, but an understanding of the command he was given was not the problem. Hence my frustration and confusion with his aggressive behavior. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" />

I am with Woody and Diana and Candi on this....... instead of a gradually-increasing distraction phase, that situation sounds like over-the-top chaos with inappropriate corrections thrown in.