I use a length of climbing rope called shock cord and use carabines to attach to the loop in my training lead. I back tie with my dog mainly when doing one on one drive building. I look at it as just a good workout for the dog in between sessions with a helper. The shock cord is very progressive in the way it streches and does not rebound like bungee.

Jason,
Consider this - you say that:
" i found that it really helps the dog to hold on tighter once she hits the sleeve. i found that by using it if the dog lets up in the least it soon relizes that it is going to loose the bite"

Ok, let's look at the training set-up with using the back tie instead of the bungee. To give that dog the realization that it could lose the sleeve, all the helper has to do it to lean away from the dog and keep the back tie taunt ( which the helper would be doing anyhow ) . So the dog will be holding on tighter using the same theory, but with less work as I see it - Simple wins the day in training, if you can get it to work.


And as far as:
"i think it really helps the dog to learn to come at the sleeve hard."

If that's true for you, the helper isn't doing his job in building frustration for the dog to do the big build up just before the bite. The helper should be making the dog wild for the sleeve to build a "strike", where the bite is actually a relief for the dog. Then the dog is rewarded for a calm grip and possession of the sleeve.


Of course, I'm talking about a perfect world where we all have great decoy's and training coaches and a perfect set-up. I know that isn't the case for everyone, but I try to base my answers on the "best case" scenario.

Good luck in your training!

Will,
I think your confusing posts; your quotes are not from me. I use the back tie primarily as exercise forcing my dog to pull and work hard to get the tug during drive building. I see it as a good alternative to throw in and mix things up when there is not a helper available. My dog bites full and hard naturally so I never really gave much thought to how back tying effects the bite in terms of mechanics.

jason,

hi, my name is jason too and will was repling to me it was my OP.

Will, i understand and agree 100%. the thing that sucks for me though is i am stuck in japan until 2008 and dont have a lot of opions for decoys/helpers. i am really limited. i agree with what you are saying though. half the time i am decoying her myself (i know this ok for now) so i am afraid if i dont switch soon she will end up becomming locked in prey.

Jason S.,
I was replying to the message directed to me from Jason P. in this thread.

Jason,
( P...not S... <img src="http://www.leerburg.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> )

I understand your concerns, but look at it this way.
First off, we understand canine drives and can explain them to a novice handler much more effectively than we could 20 years ago - so a handler that pays attention and does his research should not make the mistakes that so many trainers made while training in isolation in the past ( the internet is a great tool for this ).

Doing your own helper work will prepare your dog to make an effective transfer from you to the new helper. By doing the basic work yourself ( as shown in:
Preparing Your Dog for the Helper
"The Foundation of Grip Training" DVD 310-D )
you have developed grip and targeting and the dog knows the drill, and that is a *huge* time saver on the training field, let me tell ya!

And as far as a dog "being locked in prey" - that's almost always a problem with the helper, not the dog. A good helper that can shift into defensive work will bring that dog out from prey into defense without a hitch ( as long as the dog is of the correct maturity level and age ).
So I wouldn't sweat that, that's *easy* to fix..... <img src="http://www.leerburg.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

haha I guess I need to stop posting after drinking

thanks will,
i own and watched that dvd many time and really enjoy. she is doing great. like i said being in japan, it is hard to find a helper that will be able to understand i want her to work in defense and not prey ALL THE TIME. helpers are few and far between here. it seems like a lot of the locals are scared of big dogs so to find someone who will let a dog bite them and know what they are doing is like finding a needle in a hey stack.

Jason, this is yet another suggestion - Dean Calderon lived in Japan for a few years training the big money dogs ( if memory serves me here ) in SchH, so there is a SchH following in Japan, although it's small.
It'd take some research, but you might be able to hook up with the SchH folks on the main island if you can get a contact number for them.

Just a thought, hope it helps!

Do you still keep in contact with dean? maybe you can tell me how to get a hold of him.