Andrew, excellent points. I didn't realize that the climate up there already warmed up that much. Are there any programs in place for breeding the qualities you've listed plus good feet?

I agree with what has been said about the GSDs of today vs what qualities they were bred for in the early years of SchH. Those dogs were the 'real deal'. Unfortunately, most of the SchH III dogs of today would not last very long on the 'street' doing the real job of protection. In fact many of the police street dogs today are not what they should be. Is that because is it becomming increasingly more difficult to find dogs that can really do the job or is it because of some other factor? I think that there are more & more dogs out there getting SchH titles that should not have them. They are being passed for titles that have washed down expectations by the judges, due to the lack of dogs that can really do the work & so as not to have a lack of competetors at all for the 'sport' titles these dogs, therefore, are passed & titled. There are still dogs being passed 'on their own fields' with titles that if they had to perform on another field would not be able to pass, even with washed down expectations of performance. I'm sorry but this makes me sick. I went to the Northeast Regionals last fall & was very disapointed by the quality of dogs that were woking for their SchH III titles. I was excited to go thinking that I would be seeing a x-section of the dogs that would be competing in the nationals & a very high calaber of dog. Boy was I in for a surprize. Dogs were being passed with scores that should not have been. Some of the dogs didn't search all the blinds, platz on the send out or even do the send out at all, didn't do the out of sight long down stay, were very dirty in the blind, had less than full, calm bites, etc,etc & this was with only a small number of dogs competing. There were only a couple of dogs that actually did the work correctly but still were not as impressive as I would have expected to have seen. Has SchH just become a watered down series of obedience routines that almost any dog can pass & no longer serves the purpose that it was intended: to weed out the exceptionally good, strong, typical of the breed dogs that are worthy of being bred to pass on their genes to the next generation of real working dogs? That is not the case if these dogs are the example of what is being titled & bred. It is a shame that this is what has become of SchH. The SchH title now only means that you have a dog that can do extremely good obedience with some bite work thrown in. It does not mean that you have a dog that can realy do protection work in the true sense of the work nor does it mean that it is a dog that should be bred, just 'cause is has a SchH title. I have become very disenchanted in ataining SchH titles with my dogs. At this point in time ASR & some of the other ring 'sports' or some other more reality based trails have more of a real life protection scenario to me & can show me to what level of real protection performance my dogs can acheive. Although the title may not be as glamorous as a SchH title, they certainly are far more reality based than just a sport title. And since I have dogs that really mean it when they fight the decoy, that will be a better measure of what they are really capable of when it comes to being a protection dog with all the other breed characheristics worthy of breeding to pass on their genes to another generation of 'working' dogs. JMHO

Andrew, excellent points. I didn't realize that the climate up there already warmed up that much. Are there any programs in place for breeding the qualities you've listed plus good feet?

*****

I'm not an expert, but:

I believe it would be incorrect to say that the current dogs have "bad feet."

They may have lost some of the very specific adaptations of the northern dogs to prevent ice build up, etc.

I also wonder if the northern breeds would have done so well in the Iditarod, which is a truly extreme test, even at a slower pace.

I don't think any of these dogs would have troubles doing, say pointer work, or the running a border collie does.

"bad feet" is very relative, and specific.

rgds, andrew may

 Quote:

It strikes me that it's not only the GSD that is being ruined by mans hand, there are MANY other fine breeds no longer fit for task but it's not all down to the show lines.

I own an English Springer Spaniel. ESS show/field dogs are almost as split as GSD show/working dogs. The show dogs are generally heavier-set, flowing-coat, frequently lower-intelligence dogs as compared to the field dogs, who are much smaller, hardly any coat, very much ranging intelligence.

Some breeders, including the one where I got my dog from and the one who I will be getting my next puppy from, are sort of combining the two with great success. My bitch is field-field-field in her lines, but her papa was a massive 50-pounder (SUPER RARE to find a working field dog in that size) and her mom was on the small size, about 38 pounds. Tessie is a 45-pound dog with great coat, a good, moderate size, and high intelligence. It is frequently these 'dual purpose' Springers that are excelling in obedience, tracking, and agility today. They are not capable of winning in the show ring only because they aren't as flashy. They conform pretty well to the written standard but when put in the ring against these perfect-mask-and-saddle dogs, they're passed right over.

Some ESS breeders think it is fantastic because we have a breed that is efficient in show and efficient in field... but it's barely even a breed at this point. The 'awesome field dogs' look NOTHING like the working dogs of long ago OR the written standard of today, and the 'awesome show dogs' are frequently blocky monstrosities that couldn't find a rabbit if it was two feet in front of it holding a bag of milkbones.

There are some breeders, including the one I am working with, who are importing dogs from Europe to breed to their show dogs and are having interesting success. My breeder friend imported a liver and white stud from Sweden to keep; he is a couple finishing points off of his AKC championship, has a tail, and has PLENTY of freckles and spots. He is built like my Tessie, and to be honest I think he's the most Springer-looking Springer to set foot in the show ring for awhile. She bred him to her show bitch and got some excellent, moderate, spotted puppies, a couple of which are just starting out in the ring. The bitch has a hunting title(JH?), her Ch., and a couple of agility and rally titles. I can't wait to see how they mature. If more breeders start thinking 'dual purpose' maybe the breed can be salvaged.

I could go on and on and on about the state of Springers today. It's happening in so many breeds. Goldens, Labradors, Cockers, GSDs...

Springers and most other bird dogs. A field English setter and a show English setter are extremely different. I can't stand the show look- heavy, lips larger than their heads, houndlike expression, just not cool. The field setters are very snappy and flashy on their own without mass and plush coat. I just truly don't understand where people see the beauty in those dogs and I don't think I ever will. It saddens me to see the spaniels and setters in the show ring looking like their ears are about to drip off their heads from being set too low.

Again, so long as there is human competition involved, the dogs will suffer. No matter how the rules are written people will find ways to breed extremes to surpass the requirements while at the same time losing sight of the total dog. I'm working my way through "The German Shepherd Dog in Word and Picture" and I have to say it's un-freakin-believable what the GSD began as and what it is today. Von Stephanitz described a type of dog just as eager to have playtime with the kids as work as a real life protection dog that also earned difficult, stringent titles matching the rigors of true work. The balance just doesn't seem to be prevalent. Are different types of working GSD better balanced than others, like W German, DDR, Czech, or a certain mix of the above?