Or, just feed him his raw stuff while he's crated/kenneled...

I agree. BTW, why is it so important to be able to take away his food? I would think meal time should be the least stressed time. If someone is always "messing" with his food, he will be forever looking over his shoulder to see who might be wanting to "steal" his food.

And don't forego the RMBs because you want to dole them out one by one - make them a regular part of his meal and include them in the same bowl with his other food.

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Or, just feed him his raw stuff while he's crated/kenneled...

And/or decide that you don't want to mess with his food. I gave it, and I'm not taking it back; it's such a primal thing.

I know this is only one opinion, and there will be equally (or more) valid ideas about this, but my own feeling is that if it's not a baby pup just learning about where food comes from, I just don't mess with their food.

I'm not talking about growling and warning people off while the dog protects an item; I mean the reaction if the human reaches in and takes food that has been given.

I guess it's not a battle I choose to fight.

I think I'd be doing lots of other leadership work with the dog, as well as placing yummy pieces of non-raw food into a dish I already gave. That is, I think I'd get the dog very accustomed to my position as alpha, as well as to the idea that my reaching toward the bowl can result in good stuff.

Because of his reaction with the RMBs, I'd do this adding exercise with less-valued but still tasty tidbits.

The O.P. mentioned warning growls as she just walked past the open crate where food was being eaten. I don't think I would allow that. That's a lot of possessiveness with no threat to the food, and I wouldn't want that toward me, the pack leader. I'd probably correct the growl with a very fast and very firm HEY, but I probably wouldn't remove the food.

This is a hard thing to assess from a description. If I thought it was fear of a new and wonderful food being taken back after being given, I'd probably ignore it while making extra sure I practiced pack leadership in all other areas (doorways, furniture, etc.), and I'd probably be sure that with this dog, no food dish was ever handed over until the dog had obeyed a command to sit or whatever first.

The warning growls with no threat to the dog's new food, I'd probably not allow.

Joe, the protocol you're thinking of where you set the dog up with raw food and the e-collar, I don't know. That emphasizes the whole food thing an awful lot, as well as maybe adding an edge you might not want to the whole I-give-the-food bond.

I'm interested in other viewpoints on this. This is an issue where there are extremely varied opinions. <img src="http://www.leerburg.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

Thanks for the replies.

Maybe it's best to just feed him the RMBs in one of his crates. It can also serve the purpose of containing the mess. Last time, he dragged the bone all over the floor while he ate it. At least I won't have to drag out the mop!

The more I think about it, there is no use in actively creating a stressful situation when it need not be, especially since stress seems to lead to loose bowel movements in my dog. And I think bullying a high-value food item out of my dog's mouth will only hurt our bond.

We've been practicing Nothing-In-Life-Is-Free religiously, reinforcing the household hierachy, and it seems to be paying dividends.

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I'm not talking about growling and warning people off while the dog protects an item; I mean the reaction if the human reaches in and takes food that has been given.

I guess it's not a battle I choose to fight.

I think I'd be doing lots of other leadership work with the dog, as well as placing yummy pieces of non-raw food into a dish I already gave. That is, I think I'd get the dog very accustomed to my position as alpha, as well as to the idea that my reaching toward the bowl can result in good stuff.

I agree with Connie. I do the same thing, sometimes putting tidbits into the food bowl while my pup is eating, but it's not something I do often, just enough while he's still a pup that he gets accustomed to it. I choose my battles as well, and I never make a battle over food. Once I give it, I leave it alone. I've read one of Ed's articles where he states that the pack leader never takes the food away once it's given...he says a pack leader is fair, not a bully.

As a side note: In the past I've seen shows on Animal Planet where shelters will try to put a fake hand in the bowl while the dog is eating. If the dog growls, they determine it is not suitable for adoption and put the dog down. Personally, I think this is criminal if that is the only issue the dog has. It seems it's an issue that can be handled with the right owner.

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.....I do the same thing, sometimes putting tidbits into the food bowl while my pup is eating, but it's not something I do often, just enough while he's still a pup that he gets accustomed to it. I choose my battles as well, and I never make a battle over food. Once I give it, I leave it alone. I've read one of Ed's articles where he states that the pack leader never takes the food away once it's given...he says a pack leader is fair, not a bully. ..... As a side note: In the past I've seen shows on Animal Planet where shelters will try to put a fake hand in the bowl while the dog is eating. If the dog growls, they determine it is not suitable for adoption and put the dog down. Personally, I think this is criminal if that is the only issue the dog has. It seems it's an issue that can be handled with the right owner.

Yes, there was a time when I would've made it an issue. I still feel very strongly about my control and pack leader position, and I don't tolerate any aggression at all. It was Ed's article that made me re-think the food thing, and it made sense. I still would not let a dog issue any warnings while protecting some food item, but I'm not going to take food away, either.

That fake hand thing bothers me on many levels. It's not a human; this might well be a dog who has been starving; it just doesn't seem like a realistic "test" to me. I've done shelter work, and we don't use that particular test.

But that said, it's tough in a busy shelter to streamline adoptability tests to be practical and simple.

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As a side note: In the past I've seen shows on Animal Planet where shelters will try to put a fake hand in the bowl while the dog is eating. If the dog growls, they determine it is not suitable for adoption and put the dog down. Personally, I think this is criminal if that is the only issue the dog has. It seems it's an issue that can be handled with the right owner.

Well, my boy would pass THAT test since he doesn't growl. I guess the thing the concerns me the most about him is that he bites first, then grovels later. He shows no **obvious** signs (back hairs standing, baring teeth, etc.) that a bite is imminent. He recently snapped at my wife after she gave him a biscuit. She thought he was unaware of some crumbs so she pointed them out to him. As she did that, he went after her hand without prior warning. Fortunately, I was not too far away so I was able to run over and make it clear that it was totally unacceptable behavior. Fortunately, it hasn't happened again, but I do wish he would growl first if he's feeling uncomfortable.

Vicious beast, this one? Well, he was walking off-lead with me in the woods last week and an aggressive 25-pound (IF that, soaking wet) mutt charged my 70-pound Dobe. I never heard an animal squeal so loudly in my life. My Dobe ran away as if his life were about to end. Finally, he ran back to me so **I** could protect **him** from the little dog (which I did; I backed the little fella off). I could have sworn I was on Candid Camera.

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..... I guess the thing the concerns me the most about him is that he bites first, then grovels later. He shows no **obvious** signs (back hairs standing, baring teeth, etc.) that a bite is imminent. He recently snapped at my wife after she gave him a biscuit. She thought he was unaware of some crumbs so she pointed them out to him. As she did that, he went after her hand without prior warning.....

For me, that puts this into a new category. I'd watch this video:
http://www.leerburg.com/301.htm
a couple of times. You mentioned that you had it, I think?

Also:
http://www.leerburg.com/ubbthreads/showflat.php/Cat/0/Number/4154373/an/0/page/2

Edit: There is no other aggression, ever, from this dog?

Yes Joe, for your family's safety, I would definitely feed this Dobie in his crate -- He seems somewhat "bi-polar" on the behavior spectrum (just my layman's guess, not a professional opinion here, so take it with a grain of salt) since he gives correction bites to his handlers with no warning growls, but is afraid of aggressive dogs in public...

Anyway, there could be some instability/unpredictability issues such as sharp-shyness or fear-biting that you might want to research & guard against in future -- Did you say he's been yours from early puppyhood, or did you adopt him as an adult; and is he confident with people, but nervous around dogs (do you know if he was ever attacked by another K9) ?

We have a 2 year old rescue Dobie who behaves like a "junkyard dog" around people he hasn't bonded with yet -- He's intermittantly growly, but does NOT bite (although I suppose he might IF pushed too far by a fool, so we have a No Petting by Strangers & Guests rule in place).

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For me, that puts this into a new category. I'd watch this video:
http://www.leerburg.com/301.htm
a couple of times. You mentioned that you had it, I think?

Also:
http://www.leerburg.com/ubbthreads/showflat.php/Cat/0/Number/4154373/an/0/page/2

Edit: There is no other aggression, ever, from this dog?

No other aggression, other than the incidents I mentioned earlier in this thread.

Just a couple of days ago he was eating his dinner and his bowl started to skate across the floor. I was afraid he was going to dump the food all over the place, so I instinctly told him to "leave it" and put him in a sit-stay. I then put the bowl back in its place and released him. It all happened so quickly that I didn't realize it probably wasn't the best course of action until after the fact. However, I am heartened by the fact that he left his food when I told him to. I guess I have grown used to him minding me. Before each meal, I'll make him do "tricks" that I have been working on with him and then put him in a "play dead" before I will let him get his food. He only gets his food if he is calm-submissive (to borrow from Cesar Millan) and it seems to be helping. And as soon as he finishes his food, he goes back to his crate automatically to rest.

I have watched the dominant dog DVD several times and I have implemented many of the suggestions. My boy just doesn't seem in the same league as those dogs in the DVD, but I wonder if it is because I have been controlling every aspect of his life since he bit me a month and a half ago (after we had him for just 10 days).

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Did you say he's been yours from early puppyhood, or did you adopt him as an adult; and is he confident with people, but nervous around dogs (do you know if he was ever attacked by another K9) ?

We rescued him as an 8-month old; his former owner died in a car accident. We've now have had him almost 2 months. He is very friendly with other people and well-adjusted dogs. The only time I saw nervousness around another dog was when that little bully charged him. I don't know if he has ever been attacked, but I would guess not since he nonchalantly approaches other dogs and goes right into a play bow usually...