Michael Sullivan wrote 09/20/2006 05:00 PM Re: The Sport vs. "Real" debate once and for all.. [Re: Kristine Velasco ] #114138 - 09/20/2006 05:00 PM
Michael Sullivan Webboard User Reg: 03-22-2006 Posts: 99 Loc: Illinois Offline	If I can add one thing about this.I have been told by several trainers that the likelyhood of a ScH trained dog protecting you in a time of trouble is rare due to the ScH training.My first dog was involced in PSA(protection sport assoc.)where the training is more real life situations.Only made it to PSA1,due to cruciant ligament injury;but watching a PSA3 dog in action was truely impressive.There were a number of police dogs who also competed.After seeing both ScH and PSA trials I have to say the exercises in PSA seemed a lot more involved(more thinking on the dogs part)Example:car jacking,multiple attackers,and so on.No tracking as with ScH,but a lot of protection and OB.Food for thought
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Kristine Velasco wrote 09/20/2006 05:10 PM Re: The Sport vs. "Real" debate once and for all.. [Re: Michael Sullivan ] #114139 - 09/20/2006 05:10 PM
Kristine Velasco Webboard User Reg: 11-27-2005 Posts: 297 Loc: Offline	I think the general idea is that Schutzhund training or even any sports training (including PSA) ALONE does not make a protection dog. The topic is more on "cross training" a dog...in other words, the dog competes in Schutzhund or any other sport, but whose training is not LIMITED by those sports as he also participates in 'real' type scenarios.
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Robert VanCamp wrote 09/21/2006 01:19 AM Re: The Sport vs. "Real" debate once and for all.. [Re: Kristine Velasco ] #114140 - 09/21/2006 01:19 AM
Robert VanCamp Webboard User Reg: 11-28-2001 Posts: 3916 Loc: Offline	It's an easy argument to make. Sport work is not real, so you can't see if a sport dog is "real" just by looking at his title. BUT! Take the top 20 or so dogs in any major sport and try to screw with them off the field. I think some people might be unpleasantly surprised at how many of those dogs bite the sh!+ out of them. LOL I honestly shared that overview (sport dogs not being real) till I was in Germany recently. I saw a lot of nice dogs that had both SchH titles and who were apt to tear you a new azzhole if given the chance to do so.
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Martina C Wilson wrote 09/21/2006 10:17 AM Re: The Sport vs. "Real" debate once and for all.. [Re: Robert VanCamp ] #114141 - 09/21/2006 10:17 AM
Martina C Wilson Webboard User Reg: 11-09-2005 Posts: 211 Loc: Offline	Will I agree, I was under the impression that back in a day.. Schutz was "protection" dog, "working" dog, just because some people title kinda, not that much working dogs it does not mean that there aren't nice sport titled dogs that will protect and will do the job when put in the situation or retraine in few sessions. I have something like that at home nice sport dog that will bite if asked, with or without a sleeve.
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Kevin Sheldahl wrote 09/21/2006 06:02 PM Re: The Sport vs. "Real" debate once and for all... [Re: Kristine Velasco ] #114142 - 09/21/2006 06:02 PM
Kevin Sheldahl Moderator Reg: 07-11-2001 Posts: 1052 Loc: New Mexico Offline	Well, I guess I can help. I put a schh3 and a FH on my now retired patrol dog "CJ" and have put a schh1 on my new one and plan to put a 3 & a FH on him as well. There can be a huge gap between the sports & police work but a well trained police dog can be accomplished in the sport work. There are some rules and interpretations that make small conflicts in the work but it is not a big problem.  Quote: I don't actually want to rekindle that kind of debate. I was just wondering if anyone has any examples of sport dogs that have done true PPD or PSD work, have had real bites, or vice versa (working dogs with sport titles). I know Flinks' Itor is one. A few days ago I met with a group of people who are convinced this isn't possible. I have tried to argue that although sports pattern-train, it will ultimately have very little effect on a dog with a real strong character, and that you can simply not overtrain the sport exercises. I suppose arguments will only get deeper and the only thing I can use are facts to back them up. Any help, folks? K. Sheldahl http://k9services.com
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Beth Fuqua wrote 09/21/2006 06:10 PM Re: The Sport vs. "Real" debate once and for all... [Re: Kevin Sheldahl ] #114143 - 09/21/2006 06:10 PM
Beth Fuqua Webboard User Reg: 02-25-2004 Posts: 559 Loc: Joliet, IL Offline	Quote: Well, I guess I can help. I put a schh3 and a FH on my now retired patrol dog "CJ" and have put a schh1 on my new one and plan to put a 3 & a FH on him as well. There can be a huge gap between the sports & police work but a well trained police dog can be accomplished in the sport work. There are some rules and interpretations that make small conflicts in the work but it is not a big problem.  Quote: I don't actually want to rekindle that kind of debate. I was just wondering if anyone has any examples of sport dogs that have done true PPD or PSD work, have had real bites, or vice versa (working dogs with sport titles). I know Flinks' Itor is one. A few days ago I met with a group of people who are convinced this isn't possible. I have tried to argue that although sports pattern-train, it will ultimately have very little effect on a dog with a real strong character, and that you can simply not overtrain the sport exercises. I suppose arguments will only get deeper and the only thing I can use are facts to back them up. Any help, folks? Well, if "cheerleading" helps then count me in! Best wishes, and I am personally interested in your progress. I've come to think that when it comes to a team for any training, the handler is often more limiting than the dog!(that's certainly true in my case!). I can only speak for myself, but I will say that experience like yours inspires me & hubby in our work with our dogs. Best Wishes, Beth http://www.JolietSchutzhund.com
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travis pettit wrote 09/21/2006 08:25 PM Re: The Sport vs. "Real" debate once and for all... [Re: Beth Fuqua ] #114144 - 09/21/2006 08:25 PM
travis pettit Webboard User Reg: 12-18-2004 Posts: 179 Loc: Offline	i am with van camp on this one as well. i used to think yeah yeah sport dogs couldnt possibly be a "real" dog too or at least very very few of them. but after seeing more and more higher level dogs with better genetics and drives i have seen plenty (and actually own one) that are mainly sport dogs but wouldnt hesitate to bite someone for real. i think a dog with extreme and confident drives with sure nerves might be able to offer this for sure.
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Chris Duhon wrote 09/22/2006 08:52 AM Re: The Sport vs. "Real" debate once and for all... [Re: travis pettit ] #114145 - 09/22/2006 08:52 AM
Chris Duhon Webboard User Reg: 08-14-2004 Posts: 702 Loc: Southern Louisiana Offline	Depends on the dog and his training. The dog doesn't pick what he will do, his owner does. With that I will say that although we frown on calling ASR a sport, and prefer program, the reality is it's a sport. With that, I would bet the farm and all my turtle doves that an ASR 2-3 titled dog will give you that trip to the hospital if you choose to go a round wit'em. I truely believe that ASR is one "sport" that weeds out the "non-real/sport only" dogs in the lower levels and in order to make it and title in the upperlevels, the dog has to be a serious dog that is down for a good fight equipment or not. COL Nathan R. Jessup for President
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Lorenzo Williams wrote 09/22/2006 01:15 PM Re: The Sport vs. "Real" debate once and for all... [Re: Chris Duhon ] #114146 - 09/22/2006 01:15 PM
Lorenzo Williams Webboard User Reg: 12-13-2004 Posts: 206 Loc: OH, United States Offline	Kind of singing a song here but as many of you have said, even some of the "sports" trained dog still can do real civil work. But the dog has to have the genetic drive to do this type of work which I'm sure most of you know. Some dogs simply lack the drive to do anything more than sleeve work and the minute good pressure and/or a real threat faces him, he'll show if he has it or not. Suprisingly I've seen many top sport dogs that didn't Flinks current dog he was trying to train in Schutzhund as well as the Jago Pendel Bach dog he owned that was a police dog he was training in sport. Ufo Van Guy's Hof is another dog that did real work as well as a high competition sport dog. A few other dogs came to mind but I just had a "brain fart". LOL <img src="http://www.leerburg.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" /> <img src="http://www.leerburg.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" /> <img src="http://www.leerburg.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" /> Houserhaus Kennel http://www.houserhaus.com
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Bill Wanke wrote 09/23/2006 08:00 AM Re: The Sport vs. "Real" debate once and for all... [Re: Lorenzo Williams ] #114147 - 09/23/2006 08:00 AM
Bill Wanke Webboard User Reg: 03-20-2006 Posts: 43 Loc: SW OHIO Offline	I think the whole issue was glossed over. The difference is primarily in the breeding, then the training. This cant be underemphasized. There are working bred dogs, sport bred dogs. Sometimes the twain shall meet, sometimes not. Ive seen an enormous differnce in ability between "club" dogs and real working K9s. Doesnt take a smart guy to figure that one out. Been told maybe 1 in 30, SCH3 dogs can make the "tryout" when real pressure is exerted and intensity in increased 10 fold, to make it as a working K9, then will work a hidden sleeve,not equiptment fixated, and not run away when truly stressed, from a freind who did Tryouts, former K9 and military handler.. Gerrard Van Es, top KNPV competitor, breeder has an interesting interview related to this. Ill post for you. http://www.vonforell.com/templates/?dir=shepherds&main_page=shep_gentoLarwin_article
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