Jenni, do you mean Candi's post? I didn't mention redirecting, but she did.

I neither agree or disagree with Candi's post since I haven't seen the dog...

Oops, I mentioned a story in the news about a mastiff redirecting toward a child when it couldn't get the dog. Maybe that's what you're mentioning.

I definitely would not rule out what Candi said though! That would be foolish. I say this having an EM cross that has redirected at me once when I never would have expected that in a million years. But I agree with Jenni, fix it and I'll add, or put it down.

If you mis-read (or are just plain TOO trusting of) a smaller canine, you could end up with stitches -- But, do that with a 200 pound dog in HIGH aggression mode & you may end up as a "statistic"...

BTW, anyone who doesn't know that English Mastiffs haven't always been the "gentle giants" that showlines are today, doesn't know that breed's history well enough -- And anyone naive enough not to realize that careless or even reckless breeding (God forbid!) can produce poor temperaments & unpredictable aggression in EMs is simply wearing blinders <:-(

Obviously, none of us know this dog & none of us know just exactly how well the OP knows this animal either -- IMHO, it's always better to advise on the side of caution & safety for all...

Barbara, I meant the general links, including the redirection at a child. I really just meant that while the unexpected can always occur, if he trusts the dog, then, well, nothin' we could do about it anyway, so on to the next thing-let's fix it! <img src="http://www.leerburg.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Jenni, I realized you were speaking to me when I came on here in between doing my hair and makeup. I had enough time to PM Alice, but not to answer on the thread before I had to go out.

When I read this board, I use the 24 hour link on the bottom because I don't always have time to navigate thru all the different folders. Sometimes I get thru a few posts and have to go, which is what happened today. I didn't see Alice's new post initially, or I would have realized what was going on. My bad <img src="http://www.leerburg.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

First of all, the mastiff attack link I posted was not English Mastiffs. The first story of the rottweiler should have given that away. It was various breeds of mastiff. I made that blog page to use as a link in my bandog blog so that yahoo's realize what a huge responsibility owning any breed of mastiff is. The Florida presa incident horrified me, and I wasn't keeping the blog up without some kind of info. on what's happened to others. Sorry Alice. I thank you for explaining the spelling issue. I often use the word mastiff generically, and I agree with you about not painting all mastiffs with the same brush. Where our agreement fades is that ALL mastiffs have the potential for man aggression, and owners need to be aware of it. That's what that blog page was to show Brian and his cousin. Not to defame the English Mastiff, who's mostly a watered down show dog now. As Candi said, there are some that aren't the typical EM's around. I do agree wholeheartedly with Candi's latest post. It's never good to bury your head in the sand, and I agree with the rest of what she said in it's entirety. I always like to think of the worst possible things that could happen where innocent parties are involved, to prevent them, and anyone else owning a dog like that should also IMO.

Jenni, I assumed you were talking to Candi because you said

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I also disagree with Barbara's post; I'll give you the benefit of the doubt that he won't redirect on you.

Brian said the dog wouldn't redirect on him. He didn't say the dog wouldn't redirect on anyone else, and even if he had, I'd be skeptical, because nobody TRULY knows their dog and if they think they do, this is where accidents can happen. My post of the story about the dog who did redirect was to make him aware of what happened to someone else. When I read that I immediately thought of my EM cross, who is extremely friendly with non threatening people, and loves children. After reading that it occured to me that he could have done exactly what that dog I mentioned did if I didn't fix him, even though I never would have thought him capable of that. Nowhere did I say I thought Brian's cousin's dog was going to do this, just hey, this is what happened to someone else, be aware that if you don't fix this problem, it could be even more serious.

The link to mastiff attacks you don't agree with? You don't agree with me showing someone what's happened to others? I think anyone who owns any kind of mastiff has a responsibility to know the horror stories of others to make sure it doesn't happen with their dogs. To make sure they know what a serious responsibility this is. Sorry if you don't agree... <img src="http://www.leerburg.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" /> I never said I thought his dog was going to attack someone, I merely tried to make him aware of what's happened to others.

This isn't his dog, it's his cousins. How well does he know this dog? Not as well as it's owner I'm sure. Where's his owner? Why is the dog 200 lbs with issues? Why weren't these issues dealt with already? Why now when it's so much tougher to combat? The skill level of the owner, not Brian the OP, is in question after hearing all the details. Alice said an EM that's extremely dog aggressive isn't the norm. With that statement it's enough to realize, this isn't a regular EM, maybe be prepared for the worst including man aggression. The dog has a very serious problem.

Jenni, did you ever see a dog aggressive mastiff? It's not a pleasant site, and a 200lb mastiff with this sickness is something to take seriously. VERY seriously. Especially if the owner is not competant or experienced. So, if the put the dog down is what really got people's hackles up, sorry, but I'd rather see a problem dog dead than another tragedy and innocent bystander (whether animal or human) from being injured or killed. I have nothing further to say about this except a dog aggressive full grown 200 lb mastiff and a 50 pound pitbull are in two different leagues. Pitbulls are mostly bred without man aggression, mastiffs are not. I'm assuming Jenni, that the only reason you're posting to this issue, is because you have petbull experience.

whoa! things are starting to get snarled and confused fast around here.

my objection is to implying that because this guy has an EM, that he has to worry about human aggressiveness in a bunch of stories about dogs that were called mastiffs, but are actually not the Mastiff breed.

maybe it would be more clear if you called the mollossers, which is what they are. Mastiff is a specific breed.

having said that, i am not at all naive about dogs. ANY breed of dog can turn out aggressive through poor breeding or treatment. and sometimes, aggression just happens.

that is no reason the characterize the breed overall as an aggressive breed, or say that someone who owns an EM needs to be aware that this can be a dangerous breed. it is far less likely to be dangerous than the dogs mentioned in barbara's link.

i think anyone considering a mollosser should read that link. those are very aggressive breeds.

sure EMs have poor lines and poor temperament in some lines just like in any breed.

but what isn't right is for people to go around shuddering that because it's an EM, it could be dangerous. that's just wrong.

because it's a dog, it could be dangerous. because it's 200 lbs, it's more important that it not be aggressive.

i too would caution brian to not be so sure the dog won't redirect. if that dog gets into enough of a frenzy, he certainly could. the best thing is to preempt any possibility of a frenzy.

oh, and btw, EMs have been known as very docile and tractable as a breed for well over a century. the gladiator was bred out of them many ages ago.

Barbara, I have no idea what you're talking about. Petbull???? HUH??? <img src="http://www.leerburg.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" /> Perhaps my other personality has been posting here without my knowledge. <img src="http://www.leerburg.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />

My advice was 1)keep dog away from public dogs 2) muzzle at all times when outside house. That was it. The only reason I mentioned your post at all was b/c I don't hink this is the place for breed specific criticism. The point is the dog is large and dog-aggressive. Who cares if it's a 200lb Golden Retriever? The problem is the same.

Alice and Jenni, my reference to other 'molosser' (to make you happy Alice <img src="http://www.leerburg.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" /> tragedies was not to malign any specific breed. Just to bring a new level of awareness of what's happened to others. I think all 'molosser' owners should be apprised on these things so they know how serious their responsibility is.

Jenni, there was no breed specific criticism. I'm completely lost on how you derived that meaning from my posts. I have 'mastiffs' and I LOVE mastiffs of every kind <img src="http://www.leerburg.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> I would never malign a type of dog I love. Besides there are no bad breeds, just bad owners. There are, however, breeds that require a higher standard of care in owning, and who have a much higher potential for damage of the very serious type, if things go awry. The precautions one must take when owning a mastiff breed is much different than those of golden retriever ownership. I know, I've owned both.

Alice, I have a great respect for EM's, even if people in the know say they're shadows of their former selves. There was a discussion on a board a long time ago, and someone mentioned EM's hog catching. I posted in outrage, saying I think EM's are a noble breed and shouldn't dirty their paws on such work! Save that for the breeds that specialize in it. Well that statement caused a ruckus and I was flamed for about a week, lol <img src="http://www.leerburg.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> I'm no stranger to controversy <img src="http://www.leerburg.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/blush.gif" alt="" />

Sorry to anyone I've offended by sharing scary stories. My point was not to defame any breed, or make 'psychic' predications about the dog in question, but to bring a higher level of awareness. I was not looking at this dog as an English Mastiff, but a dog with a very serious problem who is of molosser ((generic)mastiff to me) roots. It's roots are not something that can be left out when assessing or fixing a problem with your dog.

Alice, it's true EM's haven't been war dogs in many ages, but they were still being bred for home/estate protection in the 18 and 1900's, and there are still people (few I'm sure, but not non-existant) that are still preserving these traits.

I didn't want to touch this with a ten foot stick again, but I had to come back and say I wasn't trying to speak poorly of mastiffs. That's absurd! I mistakenly thought the OP, who's attempting to fix this dog, needed to know the good, the bad, and the ugly for safety reasons, and because I prefer to know every angle. Sorry for ruffling feathers.

Ok, Barbara, about the mastiffs, I didn't think you were bashing them; everyone who's ever been on this board knows you love them <img src="http://www.leerburg.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />. My point was that it didn't really matter what it was; the problem was the same. And I don't understand your personal comments toward me at all, unless you're mixing me up with another poster. You lost me at 50lb pit bull, and totally left me in the dust at "petbull"... <img src="http://www.leerburg.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" />

Aren't you the one who used to do pitbull rescue? I assumed that you felt you were knowledgeable enough about 200 lb dogs with dog aggression to post the below comment, but the below comment is false. It does matter.

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My point was that it didn't really matter what it was; the problem was the same.

If you want to go back and forth with this, please PM me. I'm not going to post to this thread again.