Ms. Campbell,

I do know "There doesn't need to be anything "heavy handed" about remote training with an e-collar."

I have used an e-collar.

My comments have more to do with the number of times the original poster mentioned physical contact than an e-collar.

A young dog. A rescue. What kind of stimulation? How to correct? How to reward? After reading the original poster's posts I was left with an impression. I responded in the context of my impression.

Frankly, in the hands of the original poster, and based on my reading of the messages posted, I came to the impression the use of an e-collar would be "heavy handed."

Mike A.

Thanks for your clarification, Mike -- I fight e-collar prejudice ALL the time & just wanted to make sure <:-)

The trainer is extremely hard with his dogs and that of the dogs in the class. I have seen the dogs being held up by their correction collars when they have resisted a command until they gagged for air, been kicked when they havent sat in the right place and also elbowed on the top of the head. Thats why I am here as I didnt want to go down that route. I have reported the incidents to the rescue centre and the authorities and hope they will take it up.

Thank you Mike, your advice is greatly apreciated and duly noted. I need the training not the dog. I am sorry if I caused you to have more coffee than usual <img src="http://www.leerburg.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> just do me a favour, dont go onto decaf LOL.
Seriously THANKS Mike.

Mike Shaft, you sound like a really nice guy. Good luck with your rescue and the learning curve. For some of us that curve is longer than for others. Either way, it can be frustrating but also a lot of fun for both you and your dog if you're patient. Kudos to you for reporting the beast who calls himself a "trainer".

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The trainer is extremely hard with his dogs and that of the dogs in the class. I have seen the dogs being held up by their correction collars when they have resisted a command until they gagged for air, been kicked when they havent sat in the right place and also elbowed on the top of the head.

Yeah, that'll make me want to obey faster and flashier and have a nice good bond... great training there. <img src="http://www.leerburg.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/mad.gif" alt="" /> I can understand stringing up a dog so dominant it would tear you a new one if it thought it could get away with it, but absolutely not for sitting three inches off mark. Unless the dogs are *that* hard that any other correction gets ignored, but I find it hard to believe.

Personally, I wouldn't go for training a dog in protection out of a rescue just because you have no idea what its original upbringing was. That can be too dangerous. You may find a gem in rescue but more times than not you find dogs who have all sorts of odd kinks and bugs that need to be worked out. A dog needs to be extremely stable in temperament to do good protection work and a good protection dog is hard to find. Also, keep in mind I refer to personal protection, not schutzhund which is a protection *sport*.

You may need a lesson in being a good leader over your dog, so here's a link with some good leadership info: http://www.germanshepherds.com/ubbthread...p;page=0#640483 The first post is pretty much the only relevant one and it contains the link to Leerburg's excellent "groundwork" article. I suggest you read the links and check into the books. Some are more geared towards pets than workers, but the general message is how to be a good, convincing leader just by "being" one rather than forcing your dog into submission with brute force. I second or third the suggestion to buy the videos.

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Another thing to consider is to reinforce a schedule for your dog... Any schedule will work, and any schedule followed with reasonable consistency can be a great aid in training.

I agree with this 100%. The dogs know what to expect and when. They are "up" when it's time for running/playing/training (which occurs outside), and they are relaxed when they know its "down" time (inside). The best thing I ever did for me, and consequently my dogs, was to get myself organized and on a schedule.

I've owned dobermans, pits, airedales and a large mutt. None of my dogs have ever been hit by me or my family, never needed to. Educate yourself to methods that don't involve hitting your dogs. You also have only had this dog a short period of time so there is little chance this dog see's you as it's pack leader. Earn its trust and it will be more inclined to accept what you want without the situation esclating. From what you describe the pup is defending itself from you. If the budget doesn't permit buying the dvd's listen to the pod casts, they are very informative and there are other sources including this web board. Just my oppinion but this esclation of hitting and the bite response isn't good. I don't have protection trained dogs so I don't know about bite training and don't have much interest in doing it. I do know that all my dogs accept direction from the family and don't bite family members or anyone. Again, just my oppinion.