I don't think it's that complicated. If your dogs don't look at you as the leader, they'll try and lead themselves and start acting like dogs, lol, i can't speak for the Sch guy, but pack behaviour is very real in my house,
AL

Al, pack behaviour is real in my house too, until a squirrel comes along

I'm just a guy with a couple of dogs who reads books and watches dvds related to dog training. There are a lot of theories floating around. In my view, results are far more important than theories, with the goal being obedient but happy and lively dogs. However, it seems to me to be a good idea to test the truth of basic claims made.

rgds, AM

 Quote: andrew may

I don't think it's that complicated. If your dogs don't look at you as the leader, they'll try and lead themselves and start acting like dogs, lol, i can't speak for the Sch guy, but pack behaviour is very real in my house,
AL

Al, pack behaviour is real in my house too, until a squirrel comes along

I'm just a guy with a couple of dogs who reads books and watches dvds related to dog training. There are a lot of theories floating around. In my view, results are far more important than theories, with the goal being obedient but happy and lively dogs. However, it seems to me to be a good idea to test the truth of basic claims made.

rgds, AM

Totally agree with the two of you!

I believe it is a combination of all of the above. There are many theories and they each work to a degree because each dog is different. Some are "pack" oriented and some are not, of my five,when we do things as a pack(go 4-wheelin) there is one that is very independent and prefers to do his own thing. All seem to respond well to motivational training and it can stay that way throughout their lifetime, however,some reach a point that some compulsion is needed, in my experience. The best trainers/handlers/responsible owners are the ones that can figure out what works best to facilitate a good working/living relationship with a/their dog.

Debbie

Ed,
You can see right through this...it is the same as using a padded stick. Part of the softening of the schutzhund image by the SV to defend against the tree huggers that have often held political office in Germany.

This totally goes against much research (look at the herd guard dogs that if they aren't reared without the sheep don't view them as part of their pack).

But, then the German SV is aware of all this and so are their Judges. This is just a means of protecting themselves.

 Quote: Ed Frawley

I am looking for the magazine and will read the article. But if Werner Rapien indeed wrote this is certainly lacks experience. This is just about the duumbest thing I have heard in a long long time.

Bottom line is Schutzhund judges are not behaviorists. In fact most are far from it. This article only confirms that fact.

I'm relatively new to this board and I'm certainly no animal behaviorist, but i've raised 4 kids. What is so difficult with the concept of rewarding good behavior, and punishing bad behavior. Dogs just like young children exhibit behavior that can get them hurt or killed. They don't always listen, so for their own welfare, we must take the necessary action to correct that behavior. I would have preferred not to have had to spank my children, but at times they gave me no alternative. I love my dog, but at times, I have to correct behavior that is dangerous to her or others. I do what I have to do to correct her. I start with positive re-enforcement, and then start a continuium of force. You do your dog a dis-service by not requiring,or should I say demanding good behavior. Pack leader,father,mentor, or what-ever, I don't under-stand what all the fuss is about.I don't see what's to debate.

Mr. Hart,

All kinds of training techniques for all kinds of desired results - the discussions generally have to do with motivation, and ways handlers have addressed training challenges.

In this instance, a supposedly experienced dog type wrote an opinion that was counter intuitive to many posters. So, the fuss began.

Your response is in the mainstream of responders. My experiences are similar to yours. Four children, GSDs over the years, experience, trial and error, stuff... Good behavior in children and dogs - an interesting point of view.

Nice post.

Mike A.

 Quote: Mike Arnold

There is an old saw that goes 'lead, follow, or get out of the way.' I think it applies in some fashion to working with a dog and/or dogs.

Yep, I agree!

I haven't read the article yet, but basically IF you are GUIDING, TEACHING and SOCIALIZING then you are being a pack leader.

It's not rocket science! LOL

The sentiments expressed in that article are ALL the rage among every "clicker & cajole", OC, PM, "toy & treat" (only!) trainer who believes in NO corrections ever, Ever, EVER -- They & their disciples are all over every other doggie board on the net <:-(

It seems that we who believe in pack dynamics are all "out of date" in our knowledge of canine behavior, and/or, we just live to BULLY animals into forced submission (oy vey!) -- They've now moved beyond even "pet guardianship" all the way to "pet partnership" or some such nonsense...

 Quote: andrew may

Al, pack behaviour is real in my house too, until a squirrel comes along

i know exactly what you're going through. my dog "ruby" will mind quite well, but her drive to chase things is still completely out of my control. if she's on leash, i can usually get her attention reasonably quickly - but off-leash, look out (usually after 5-10 seconds at a full bolt i can get her attention back)!

when i start working a decent job, i'm thinking ed can expect a pretty decent sized order.


Ed's Comments added in:

James - its time for a remote collar and low level stimualtion training.

Cindy,

I too am wondering if it isn't all about semantics. Ed sells two books on his web site by Shelia Booth. I have them both. The books are about training your dog using purely positive methods. In her books, she doesn't say much about being a "pack leader", but her books are filled with advice such as

""Don't sweat the small stuff" is a common maxim for human relationships. In canine relationships, it's exactly the opposite. Control all areas of this puppy's life."

And:

"Use little things to convince him of his subordinate status."

That sounds a lot like being a pack leader to me.

Rich,
You are so right there, I agree with the positive training methods up to a point, that is where the proffing comes in. Seems like the dog world is now trying to follow the teaching of Spock, you know the guy who came out many moons ago now about how to raise your kids, no spanking and sitting down to reason with them even at age 2 and 3. Well I for one am very glad that I did not follow that advice, both of my kids were spanked when needed to be and both have turned out pretty well, one a minister the other a teacher and coach. So the dog world is about 25 or 30 years behind the people world but at the end of the day a kid that is not spanked is spoiled rotten (seen this over and over again). So yes we must lead our dogs or they will lead us.
Once again I agree 100 precent with the positive teaching approach in the beginning of training but there comes a time when you have to introduce corrections no matter what any one says in my opinion.

As Proverbs 3:12 points out
because the LORD disciplines those he loves,
as a father the son he delights in.


Jay