compulsion doesnt have to involve force... my point exactly, the piont of compulsion is for the dog to only know to do it one way, that doesnt always have to involve force. that being said, we both know that purely force based training can work, what do you think was going on in germany in the early years of the breed? the dogs we have are much different now, and besides, its quite frankly better to not use just force, and to incorporate secondary and tertiary reinforcements while training.

my opinion is that most people are of the opinion that compulsion equals force, and scientifically that is incorrect. for some people, the only way to make the dog compulsive is force. for others, compulsive behavoir is seen while tracking with a tight line. my point is that compulsion only means that the dog doesnt know any other way. so your last statement "what would you do if he didnt?" simply doesnt apply because the dog has to be made to act compulsively and i you cant do it without force then you must do it with force. my point is also that if you always have a calmly gripping dog on the dumbell, why would you switch to anything else, the less opportunities for the dog to make mistakes means less options the dog knows exists. as dr raiser would say, its easier for the dog to stay on the highway of learning if his options are limited, i think that we can all see the deductive nature in that...

Travis,
I did not say force-based training couldn’t work, I just said it produces unreliable results.

This is a diagram of the model I think of when training a dog:

Purely Motivational ---------------------------------------------- Purely Compulsion (Force-Based)

Depending on the dog and the exercise I am trying to teach, depends where on this spectrum my training lies (or more accurately, how far to the right I go). I stay away from the extremes, because I believe that training strictly in those areas produces unreliable results (on top of the fact that pure force training is inhumane).

I agree with you wholeheartedly that limiting a dog’s options during training expedites the learning of that exercise, but I just don’t define that strictly as compulsion. I think the goal of all training methods is to get the dog to (in your words) ‘act compulsively’, that is, to perform enthusiastically, with zest & desire, and do so reliably. I think you’re referring to the term in the perspective of the dog vs. the method that the handler is using to influence/manipulate & ultimately teach the dog, which is how I’m referring to compulsion.

As a true novice I'm not sure I'm qualified to respond on this thread. That being said, our trainer subsribes to Bernard's methods generally (dog appropriate), and I think it helped the "humans" a lot to use the word "stimulation" rather than "correction" - in the spirit of what I think Bernard is trying to convey.

Let me know if my take on this as a novice is of further interest.

Beth

Travis,
I think you really didn't read my post and pay close attention because when you said a good dog will go into a high level of drive with compulsion , you are just repeating what I said in my post.
I still do not understand what you mean when you said about three illustations of compulsion that someone made clear to you, they sound terrific but in dog world it's just fluff that sounds like somebody that doesn't know anything about training and is trying to find science in it.
I do not know your knowledge in training but what you believe is pretty much incorrect.
Maybe it is not your fault and you learned from someone that did not know better.
When you say that a good dog in protection is going into compulsion because he sees the blind or someone is cracking the whip ,you are far away for compulsion behavior.When the dog sees the blind or someone cracking the whip, after the dog is trained to know the bind and what the whip connects with, the bad guy ,the dog at that moment is in FIGHT DRIVE. It is like a fighter before he is going into the ring he prepares himself mentally with his body language,punching his gloves,showing to his opponent he is ready to fight equivalent to a peacock spreading his feathers towards his opponent.
When you said the main thing you have learned is that compulsion is the act of creating reliable behavior in your dog , you are still wrong because it means you are forcing the dog to do something he doesn't want to do all the time and then like John said and like I said in my previous post that is when a dog can become unreliable.
Like I said in my post I do not use alot of compulsion because my dogs have really high drive and I make it really fun for them to work.
You keep talking about compulsion but you never say how you apply compulsion.
When you are working in obedience and you want to apply compulsion what are your methods?
You mentioned the dumbell and sometimes it's true what you say a good dog he is not mouthy (he doesn't chew the dumbell) so he doesn't need to be taught not to chew.
Some dogs do chew from the beginning so how do you apply compulsion to make him stop?
John,
We agree on several things between my post and your post especially when you say to use just enough force to get the message across and then followed up with reward. That is exactly what i said light jerk followed by reward to bring dog back up in drive.
Anyway who was right on target is Beth because she said the correct term and that is what I was trying to convey in my previous post, please understand that engish is not my first language . When she said stimulation that is exactly what it is and stimulation is the first step of correction.

Regards,
Francesco Carotenuto
http://www.K9Nation1.com

the graph illustrates the remedial idea of the continium of motivators both positive and negative reinforcements, i agree that a mixture is needed, that is obvious. i, like francesco, beleive that it is a testament to the caliber of dog trainer one is by how much force he has to use to acheieve acceptable results, or perfection... as far the the terminology goes, compulsion does mean "to make one act compulsively" in this case the word "one" obviously refers to the dog. i did some more research for you specifically on this topic, of course its all readily available to you as well on the internet...

these are the explicit definitions of compulsion by scientists and psycologists...

1. Uncontrollable, repetitive, and unwanted urge to perform an act. Failure to perform the act leads to feelings of anxiety.

2.Repetitive ritualistic behavior such as hand washing or ordering or a mental act such as praying or repeating words silently that aims to prevent or reduce distress or prevent some dreaded event or situation. The person feels driven to perform such actions in response to an obsession or according to rules that must be applied rigidly, even though the behaviors are recognized to be excessive or unreasonable.

3. An uncontrollable urge to perform some action.

4. is an irresistible impulse to perform a certain action

5. An uncontrollable, repetitive and compelling urge to perform certain acts, such as hand washing, which has no immediate benefit beyond relief of anxiety. It is the behavioral manifestation of an obsession.

in all of the aspects of these instances, the word repitition and uncontrollable keep appearing. these were all taken from psycological websites explaining the same principle, dont worry john, you aren't the only person who is mistaken by the useage and meaning of the term! its ok, i used to think the same way.

this actually veered away from my initial statement that the dog is still in drive while its being corrected if the flinks method is being performed correctly and you have a dog with the correct genetics. however, i like the fact that there is some people who will stand their ground on dog training theory! it keeps the mind active and open to change, which we all know is needed to keep up with the dogs!

sorry francesco, my appologies for not being clear, as far as the definition goes, i think that anyone who can search on the internet can read them. you are right when it comes to dog training, compulsion is thought of as force, but i think unfairly so, just my opinion we could argue all day on that alone, however, i was not trying to instruct anyone on how to apply compulsion at all.

i dont agree that i am wrong on the principle that the dog has to be forced because every dog does something reliably without force, they are all different. for instance my dog lies down everytime he is outside in the same spot without fail, i have never seen him go outside and lay in a different spot immediately. it is reliable, just like many other things, you may think of it as habit, or whatever but i have never forced him to lay there and yet he does it everytime. my dog will bite a ball everytime, he is reliable, i have never forced him to bite it, if there is a ball he will bite it everytime without force and reliably, everytime the whip cracks my dog will bark, i have never forced him to do it, but an association has been made in his mind to go into what you call "fight drive". im saying that the simple fact that the dog goes into fight drive shows a compulsive behavior and a steady nerve. let me ask you this also. what about the food refusal in ring? would you consider the act of eating only food from a certain container from a certain person compulsive? i would also ask you if you know anyone who has a dog that has been taught strictly with a motivational retrieve? do their dogs produce reliable results?

by the way i meant to add, that i have heard nothing but great things about your training francesco, and i feel that if we were training dogs together we would actually agree on many things, but i am a bit of an intellect, and i do think that it never hurts to discuss it. we could probably spend a year talking about drives as well! lol

Travis,

Some other definition’s to consider. I don’t disagree with you in the association of compulsion with the psychological definitions relating to obsessive-compulsive behavior, but the other definitions and synonyms all relate to force, coercion, pressure, duress, etc…

From Merriam-Webster Thesaurus:

Entry Word: compulsion
Function: noun
Text: the use of power to impose one's will on another <in that class I read books under compulsion that I ordinarily wouldn't have considered> -- see FORCE 2.

Dictionary:

Main Entry: com•pul•sion
Pronunciation: k&m-'p&l-sh&n
Function: noun
Etymology: Middle English, from Anglo-French or Late Latin; Anglo-French, from Late Latin compulsion-, compulsio, from Latin compellere to compel
1 a : an act of compelling : the state of being compelled b : a force that compels
2 : an irresistible persistent impulse to perform an act (as excessive hand washing); also : the act itself

The dog lies down in your yard in the same spot by his own accord (not trained or taught), he bites objects b/c of his genetic pre-disposition to do so (not trained or taught), and the whip-crack/blind/barking is operant-conditioning, not compulsion. Honestly Travis, what you are saying is confusing to me. You say that compulsion training uses force sometimes, but not others. Do you subscribe to the Motivational <-> Compulsion training model, or something else all together?

The food refusal: Conditioning a dog to eating out of the same bowl presented by the same person day-in & day-out is not compulsion/force-based training. Attaching a hotdog or sausage to a battery charger electrode to stimulate to dog in case he decides to accept the food during the refusal exercise is compulsion (ie; a force that compels).
I have seen numerous dogs trained in a purely positive/motivational manner and the dogs often take very long to learn what is expected and I do see unreliability.

The manner in which you refer to creating a compulsive response from the dog also makes me wonder…you are using the psychological definition of compulsion/compulsive which associates a level of anxiety that is present when not act compulsively. I personally don’t want a dog that is constantly anxious when he cannot, say, retrieve a dumbbell. Furthermore, compulsive behavior is often linked to a single behavior…this is not really applicable to dog training where we are teaching many different commands & exercises.

This is how it was explained to me:

Imagine trying to get a person to sit, for instance, in the 5th seat of the 5th row in a lecture hall, without speaking to them.

Purely Positive/Motivational: Using a Clicker and marking & rewarding the desired behavior of the person as the randomly walk about the lecture hall to steer them to the appropriate seat.

Pure Compulsion: Using a Pinch Collar/E-Collar/Ear Pinch, etc. to apply stimulation until the person finds the correct seat, then taking the stimulus away.

The Modified Version: Guiding the person by the shoulders, for example, using just enough pressure to get the message across as to which seat you want them to sit in, then rewarding them.

Which of these do you think will achieve the desired result most clearly & effectively with the least confusion and shortest duration of stress?

In teaching the Retrieve with my female Malinois:

She eagerly retrieves naturally, very high drive and can take pressure…so genetically speaking, no problem. She was chewy on the dumbbell, actually chewy is an understatement. So first, teach her to hold the dumbbell calmly. I used a pinch collar with a tab under her chin. I present the dumbbell - she chews - I put steady tension on the pinch when she chews. She stops chewing – out – reward. There was a point where she wanted the reward, but would not take the dumbbell in her mouth. This is where compulsion training became very clear to me. She still wanted the reward (she is still in drive), but didn’t want to take the dumbbell b/c of the correction/stimulus/pressure, but that doesn’t matter…I have deemed this a mandatory (compulsory) exercise, she has to do it whether she likes it or not. I put the dumbbell in her mouth and we continued, even if I had to hold her mouth shut with the dumbbell in it. Throughout this I remain very calm and she always gets the reward for performing correctly. In 7-10 days, she was holding the dumbbell calmly for 10-15 seconds easily. (I’d like to thank Armin Winkler at this point b/c I doubt I could have done this without him).

Without hearing Bernhard talk about drive, compulsion, drive…I think this is along that line. I agree with much of what Francesco has said, did Bernhard speak specifically about this at the seminar you recently hosted Francesco?