Thanks for Calling my dog any of those things... Great "joke no offence"
Im not going to be convincing anybody of otherwise, I guess I got lucky because The way they turned out is all but what you described..
This method works for some people and not for others.

Just take it in to a consideration..
Thanks

Martina it's ok the way you taught your dog but not all dogs can do that and I agree with Travis.Like I said my oldest male will not revere on anyhting but the "helper" he is not sleeve sonditioned at all. My female she won't even look at the sleeve she looks a tthe man and wants to bite the man not the sleeve if you let her.She's the type of dog that looks real good on a bite suit.Now my 11 month old is a bit way too much on the prey drive right now and I am backing off on my sleeve work and tug play.But again 3 different dogs, my oldest out of Mink is more of a serious dog he has all the 3 drives and it's easy to tap into each drives.My female the same.I think my youngest is more on the prey drive and most likely will stay in that drive (most of the time) Some dogs are just prey monsters.I call him my "sport dog" A big 98 lb teddy bear,I don't think I will have another like my oldest unless I get a pup out of a real hard dog I refer to him as my PPD dog , he never will be "thee sports dog" I enjoy doing Schutzhund with him but he really is a serious dog. We have a couple of dogs that do revere (in our Schutz club) to sacks or the sleeve on the ground, but those dogs are simply sports dogs and just that, nothing wrong if all you care is about the sport.For me I like serious dogs , but I'll keep my sports dog too!. OK I'm done bragging about my pooches.

 Quote: cindy heath

I have a friend with an 18 month old high drive female GSD. She is doing very well in her beginning bite work and is ready to begin the bark and hold. The training director/decoy in his club is recommending a method that I have never heard of and I wanted some input- good or bad. He wants my friend to send his dog to the helper on a long line and when she is in front of the helper, to command her to sit. No correction or limit on the long line. If she sits, he rewards her with a bite; no barking required. If she doesn't sit, my friend is supposed to pull her back with a fuss command and start over. If she bites the sleeve the handler is to out her and then pull her back. I feel that this does not sound as efficient as the traditional methods and will let her get in the habit of 1. not barking 2. biting the sleeve without 'holding'. Any comments?

Hi Cindy. I'm new to all this as well, so I'm not asking this question in any sort of critical way. We recently worked up to starting the bark and hold with our GSD male, so I'm wondering about possible differences in training techniques.

What training has gone on during protection foundational work relating to barking? Long before we reached the blind (or even the sleeve) our dog learned that barking is one important way he can "push" the helper and on some level, control the game. (LOL - the dog isn't in charge - he just thinks he is!)

I guess my point is that we did a lot of foundational work moving the dog between prey and defense modes long before blinds were introduced. So for us, it's less an OB exercise (find bad guy in blind, sit, bark, get reward) as it is a movement between prey and defense modes (I can win if I can chase my prey....if my prey is cornered and decides to fight, I need to convince my prey to RUN by behaving in a threatening way - then I can win).

Of course the helper and handler play key roles in controlling all this with the dog. It's just so subtle - and it goes way beyond an OB type thing where you teach a dog to 1) sit 2) bark 3) get reward.

I hope this makes some sort of sense - I'm still learning all this.

Tracking = Learning comes primarily from the ground. (handler & trainer are less important during the track - problems are solved, and training primarily occurs based on how the track is laid for that dog)

OB = Learning comes primarily from the handler. Stimulus, reward, etc. IMO, the most challenging segment of SchH for a newbie handler.

PR = Learning comes primarily from the helper (if you have a good one). Dog learns to "activate" fun stuff on the field, control is managed via the helper and handler as a team (even though the dog is to believe that dog/handler are the team).

I hope this makes sense - I'm pretty sure it won't.

Beth

I do not want to fight, nor say my way or highway.. no way, I know what you are talking about "havin a serious dog". This is just a technique that is all. BTW I had 12 yer old Sport GSD i never taught on a toy because of the fackt of not looking serious, and I have a civil dog I choose to teach on a toy because I new I do not need to bring any seriousness out..he just has it.. I think to each its own.. hope I didn't write it confusing.
Happy training, Martina..
Looks like you got the whole pack over there..

Martina, I was in agreement with you so I don't know "I don't want to fight" means..
I was agreeing with travis that I don't teach or want to "revere" my dog on an object, I have seen it done and that is not something I would teach my dogs but if a dog is a total sports dog (lots of prey drive)you can teach it on a object.I was simply saying that for a dog that is a bit more on the serious side , it's not as easy to teach and I don't know that it is a good thing if you want to keep your dog on a more serious level.Does that make sense? I knew exactly what you were taking about ,cause I have seen it done that's all.
I like a hold and bark on the man and the man only, but it's a big world and like you said to each its own....

Sometimes things are hard to write, I am still trying to make sence. I know that you agreed with me and disagreed about the Objecct B&H. I disagree that the dog is going to be Object focused, because of that. I have to disagree with that. that is whatI meant. I taught a dog on a toy, as a foundaition: he was 5 mos when I started b&h on a toy.. fun, fun.3 mos Later I transitioned on a helper, still fun fun fun.. he is a puppy, now he is 14 mos old still young.. and even though it is fun his b&h sayz :bring it on.. he doesnt care about the sleeve. Bites suite.. will take the sleeve but he doesnt care about it.
I just tried to get across the fact that if the dog has it, if the dog is serious, if the dog, ghas nice fight, and is civil.. teaching b&H on a toy is not a problem.
Hope I do make sence..
Of course bringing out the confidence in b&H is a totally new story..

Ok ,using a tug as a motivational tool and reward during your training of the BH ok, I use that.My dog if I'm holding the tug underneath my shirt or where ever , he'll bark for it.But that is not a revere.What I was talking about is a send out to do a revere on a object, not being a good thing.If your dog is 14 months I imagine he does not do that, so maybe you are like me at times and don't write it out the way it makes sense.(i do that plenty of times,hell I might be doing it now) but ok I understand Martina, yes what you are doing is great and makes sense now to me.But don't use the "revere exercise".If you say revere to your dog for him to bark at the toy that's different, I think Travis and I (travis you can correct me if I'm wrong) we interpreted what you said as , you're sending out your dog to do a revere on an object.Your dog sounds like he is on the right track so I won't beat this subject down.

 Quote:

We could all teach our dog to sit and bark to get something he wants. What I don't like with the approach of the helper I describe in the first post, is that seems to be rewarding drive reduction. We've spent months encouraging drive for the prey object, the desire to 'play' with the helper and eventually to want to fight with him and now we would reward her for running up and sitting quietly. We must remember the 'whole picture'. The B & H as I understand it, is an exercise to demonstrate control of a dog that really, really wants the helper. The rule book describes it as: 'the holding..is focused, attentive,close, intense, persistent right up to the call-out, self-sure and confident. The barking is continuous, sustained, energetic/enthusiastic, convincing.' This is in the face of a strong, self-confident helper; not just an object. I don't have time to describe the methods that we were taught in my previous club but it requires the dog to have the attitude described above as well as learning to hold himself back- of course the whole exercise comes together in pieces. The judge is gauging the attitude not just the 'behaviors'. If Kevin Sheldahl has time, he can describe the difference very clearly. I'm not sure if this makes sense, but please add your comments/discussion.
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You know my answer here Cindy. This ain't schutzhund. It may look a bit like it but it is not. What i mean by this is that the bark and hold literally translated means to bark and guard. Where is the guard part here. What foundation was set for the guard portion?

Where does the dog learn to prevent the escape of a bad guy and prior that warn of the bad guys presense?
There isa no place in the rules that call it a sit and bark let a lone a sit. The dog must guard closley but if it stands, sits, or even downs who cares??? Not the judge.
If the dog is not guarding with intensity the judge cares, if the barking is not continous and convincing the judge cares.

I am a bit of a purinst in regards to the why of a dogs performance. If the dog is simply barking like a S$R dog it is not schutzhund. There must be a guard, an implicit threat that is you act you will get bit. This may be a bit old fashioned but I recall the comments from the chief of judges at the Bundesseiger in 99 and he was scathing in regards to dogs whose guard was not one that demonstrated power in front of the man. The technique you asked about would produce a bark (indication) with no guard. A good judge will use that as a foundation for judging all the protection performance of the dog. I would much rather give the judge a good first impression of a dog.

yes that is what I meant... I had to misunderstood in the firs place, and I have to agree I would not send a dog to do bark&Hold on a object only.

I am still a bit confused by how to train the bark and hold or as Kevin pointed out the bark and guard. I have watched the DVDs for training the police bark and hold, as well as the building searches, etc... however I am still unclear. What are the training steps to teach the dog to turn it (bark and guard) on and off? In the videos it is clear that the dogs represented clearly recognize the Helper as someone they want to bark and bite, and with Kevin's great use of the bamboo stick they learn distance appropriate for a real threat but how do you teach the police service dog or even the personal protection dog to "turn the switch" to go into bark and guard?

I have been working through Bite Development and my dog does fairly well in that, although I am currently working on explosiveness. I would like to start teaching him to bark and guard, so I am looking for specific steps or milestones in the training - any advice would be appreciated.

-Al