Quote: Amber Morgan

 Quote: Connie Sutherland

Are you asking about kibble or fresh food?

I was asking about kibble specifically, but isn't it true that a dog's daily nutritional requirements are the same regardless of if it's fresh or kibble? In other words, if it needs a daily 25% protein, that doesn't change if it's fresh or kibble, right? I'm lost.

PS- The calcium issue I was talking about was the calcium to phosphorus ratio. (I know my spelling is all over the map. I'm tired!! :sleep

The requirements are the same, of course, but whether we have to calculate them and base ingredients on them depends on whether we are feeding kibble or fresh.

We wouldn't supplement with either calcium or phosphorous if we were feeding kibble. And if we are feeding fresh, the calcium-phosphorous ratio is the bone-to-meat ratio that is exemplified by the raw diet that's shown at Leerburg's and the NJBoxers and Raw-Feeding and RawRanch and in many threads here -- the diet that we make as close to possible to what the dog would kill and eat in the wild.

 Quote: Carol Boche

Thank you Connie, I will keep plugging away at this. :-)

Sounds like you are doing great.

The biggies (like calcium) are in the fresh food that we feed, becxause we feed what the dog would eat in the wild if he had a perfect prey-plenty world. We add Omega 3s and E to make up for the parts we have good reason not to feed, like brains and eyeballs and stomach contents.

Okay, so what I'm doing now is feeding Innova Adult Large Breed and raw meat...now in separate feedings. The Innova is 25% protein and has controlled levels of calcium and phosphorous to give a steady, slow growth rate.

Now, if I add marrow bones to that....say daily or every other day...is that too much calcium/phosphorous or not enough or it's not a big deal either way?

The reason why I'm asking all of this is to ensure that my large breed puppy doesn't grow too fast, but still gets ample protein. It's my understanding that the calcium/phos ratio is a factor in rapid or slow growth as well.

There is so much conflicting info on this. I'm really trying to sort it out, but everyone seems to have an opinion. Like I said though, the people here practice what they preach and that's why I'm begging for your advice!

What do you mean by marrow bones? Beef marrow bones? If so, these are not bones to figure in your ratio of RMBs. Marrow bones are recreational bones only, sometimes known as weight-bearing bones, and have nothing to do with a dog's diet. These bones are in addition to and separate from the bones you want to feed your dog on a daily basis. You want to use the softer bones in the diet, such as chicken backs, necks, wings, pork necks and riblets, turkey necks, etc.

I posted a formula for figuring out how much to feed not too long ago, and you can follow it for the raw meals you serve.

Thanks Jan, I'll look that up. What is the percentage of protein a large breed 8 week old puppy should stick to, though? What's too much and what's not enough? And does that change and if so, at what age?

Thanks.

 Quote:

...when can the pup go for a mile or two mile walk without dangering his joints? I heard a year, but that seems so late...he'll destroy the house long before that!

I agree, while I do NOT do any repetitive exercise with my puppies (jogging on leash for miles on pavement) or high impact (encouraging jumping heights continuously) I DO give WAY more exercise to my dogs than anything 'on leash'. Playing in the yard, running, chasing, wrestling, tugging with other dogs..... Going for long OFF leash hikes in a safe area so the pup can monitor it's strength and sit/down rest to wait for me to catch up............

I personally feel that many breeders choose to 'blame' we puppy owners when our pups end up with bad hips/elbows. You DAMAGED your puppy by over exercising......... When the REALITY is these issues are primarily GENETIC and the breeder needs to accept responsibility and use the knowledge in future breedings (or not).

So I exercised both of my 2 GSD puppies (now 8 years and 3 years) exactly the same as my yellow Lab (now 13 years old) and we do NOT have any elbow or hip issues. And all 3 dogs made it to the highest levels of agility, with my older GSD obtaining her MACH (Agility Championship).

So I say to use some common sense, but other than that THEY ARE PUPPIES and should get the same amount of exercise as any other breed of dog (makes no sense to give 'less' exercise to a dog that is from WORKING lines ??) I really use the off leash method the most though, because it's easier to really see how the pup is really doing, and they learn to pace themselves with tearing around and then resting and tearing around and then resting......

Here's some sites with more information:

http://www.showdogsupersite.com/hips.html

http://www.yourdoghealth.com/dog_ester-c_study.htm

From http://showcase.netins.net/web/royalair/health.htm

 Quote:

In a study involving 236 German shepherds, it was demonstrated that the most reliable way to eliminate canine hip dysplasia was through the establishment of "pedigree depth," that is, by the use of ancestral lines of dogs radiographically free of hip dysplasia.(33)

Results of controlled breeding programs in Sweden further indicated that the prevalence of hip dysplasia in the German shepherd was substantially reduced by mating only dogs with radiographically normal hips.(7,50) Similar decreases in prevalence have occurred in another controlled breeding program in a colony of guide dogs (Seeing Eye, Inc. Morristown, NJ).

In another account, with 584 progeny in a closed colony of German shepherds, it was shown that the prevalence of hip dysplasia was noticeably reduced by selectively breeding dogs proved radiographically to have normal hips at 1 year of age or older. In 3-1/2 years the incidence of hip dysplasia was lowered from 39% to less than 17%.(64) The male dogs in this colony had a wide variation in their ability to transmit normal hips to their progeny. For example, only 8.7% of the progeny of one dog with radiographically normal hips at 2 years of age developed hip dysplasia, whereas 37.8% of the pups of another dog with similar radiologic evaluation mated to the same bitches developed hip dysplasia.(20)

and... (later in the same article)

HD develops as a genetic misinformation in fetal formation of the hip joints. The hip joint is a ball-and-socket type joint, In HD, the normally rounded head of the femur (thigh bone) is flattened and fits poorly in the socket, or that produces a shallow acetabular cup (the bone of the pelvis that holds the head of the top of the thigh bone), so that the femoral head rides "sloppily" in this "cup". With time, there is wear and tear on both surfaces that grind down the cartilage and produce calcium deposits and much pain upon movement. It varies in degree with puppies that can't walk to marginal adults that later in life develop the arthritis. It is inherited and the only prevention is not to breed HD positive (on X-Ray) breeding stock

And it seems that FAT puppies with too much weight gain can contribute to hip problems. So exercise is only a good thing (along with watching the diet) to prevent this from occuring. This site http://www.workingdogs.com/vchipdysplasia.htm
has a section at the bottom about prevention and DIET.

Thank you VERY much, Jan!! That was a hella informative post. It'll keep me busy all night. I like the off-leash idea. Carbon and I played in my dad's woodsy yard today and he was a complete nut! Pouncing and rolling and romping. Too funny. And guess what? He's sleeping now!!

Any takers on the protein question?

Amber I think I've heard for large breed dogs that the protein level shouldn't top 25%. But I say that at the same time that I admit that I could be very wrong. I'm not even sure where I heard that but it sounds right!!

 Quote: Amber Morgan

Thank you VERY much, Jan!!

I don't know why I wrote Jan! I meant Jenn! Sorry sorry sorry!!