I want my dog to "be in conflict with the helper". My objective is, as Mr. Frawley has often stated, "for the dog to view the helper as a fighting partner: someone who has the ability to hurt him, not just hold somethng he sees as a toy."
As I don't do Schutzhund, I'm not sure if that is the objective there or not. But I have watched some Schutzhund dogs that looked as though they were fighting with the helper. Much more intense than all of the others I saw.
Regards-
Ted

True, what I meant about being in conflict with the helper is with many sport dogs (which I assumed we were talking about) the helper will make severe corrections on the dog. I have seen this first hand and feel the dogs grips went to hell because now he was in conflict over who he should be listening to the handler or the helper. I think the handler should always be the one to give the correction. The helper is the one the dog wins over not gets corrected by.

Nancy,

Have you tried calming your dog after the dog has gotten the grip? The helper needs to remove the conflict he's giving the dog, after the grip, & not slip the sleeve until the dog quits trashing. Sometimes the helper turns & calmly walks with the dog while the handler pets/praises the animal. A line on the sleeve can sometimes be added to remove more pressure from the session. After the dog is holding the sleeve, he/she is allowed to keep the sleeve so long as it remains calm for a short period of time. We then repeat. After several sessions the helper should be able to calmly walk back to the dog, & work the sleeve again, keeping in mind that the main objective is to keep the dog clear & focussed, not hectic. I have seen this work in my club first hand.

Gretta

Nancy,

I would guess that your dog was reacting to the way he was taught to out. The dog was confused by the aggitator "outing" the dog. I would put him back on the bite and have the aggitator not repeat the exercise until the dog can be worked in defense. Get the dog so he will out on command without pulling up on the collar. At that point do it again and make him pay for letting go. It won't take him long to figure out that the aggitator will make him pay for outing on anything but your command.

As for head shakes and re-bites. I have dealt with a lot of various opinions about both. My current trainer likes to see a head shake as it can break an arm when done by a dog. I don't like a head shake. If I have to go to court with a question of my dog being vicious I have seen it help that the dog made a single firm bite and held. It demonstrates that the dog is in control and doing the minimum need to control the situation.

I had a 135# GSD (SCH III) destroy a guy's arm after having his jaw broken with a chain. The dog didn't use a head shake or rebite, but still broke the arm and tore it up pretty bad.

My preferance is for the dog to make a solid bite and pull against an aggitator. I like a big dog that can control the aggitator and keep them off balance. A dog on a bare arm is very different than a dog an a sleave. There is a psychological component to this. Pain is a wonderful thing to control a bad guy. Most are not going to have the ability to do much about it, and it will be tougher to fight the dog with them on your arm increasing the pain than if they come off to rebite. It is a lot like firing a gun, it is much easier to hit a target that isn't shooting back. If the badguy is going to use a gun or knife the dog will lose if they can get to the dog, which is why I want the dog to at least keep him off balance and put him on the ground if possible.

Yes Karmen, when I said "in conflict", I meant fighting with the helper, not taking corrections from him. For a PP dog, the decoy should never be giving commands, or the dog should not be obeying them! I agree with you, only the handler should control the dog.
Ted

Hello, Nancy , were in va. are you and why is the helper outing your dog ? I do helper work and nobody but me is going to out my dog the dog can learn to out without the command and I think just by the way you are describing what your dog does he needs to be worked in mostly prey drive if he seems to be in conflict with the helper. Weather I am working my dog in sport or for protection nobody but me is going to out my dog.

The dog is outing because of conflict which is a form of avoidance. Schutzhund is done in a serious of steps. You do not go to step 2 until you've mastered step 1. What was the point of the helper doing the same thing over and over again. This only reinforces a wrong response. Take a step back and work up again. If you have to go back to the tug then do so.

Kevin - the helper was not outing the dog. Because the dog is new to him and the training director, I think he was proofing the dog to see how strong the bite really was and the confidence of the dog. He did not give a command he just pulled up on the collar lightly and the quit biting. Personally I do not think he should have done this because a helper in a trial would never touch the dogs collar. He was surprised that the dog quit so easily, when the dog came at him so strongly and fighting him. So my think was the dog is responding to my training the out. I trained the out by holding the dog up by the collar to drop the sleeve/tug once he had it. Is my thinking correct or is this a weak dog who just come off strong. I am being told I should not work him because of his hecticness and the fact that he let the sleeve go when the helper pulled on his collar. This is the first time the dog has ever released the sleeve.

Nancy

I can't believe the helper told you NOT to work the dog because of this issue.. and happening on the first time he has seen this dog. If the helper can't work thru this perhaps you should find another helper. Where are you located?

Nancy,

My point is that if the dog was taught to out by pulling on the collar that will become a command just like a voice command or a hand signal. In effect the aggitator did out the dog. I base this on the description of the dogs behavior. He did out and then was confused as to why everybody wasn't happy that he did it. I would not stop training based on one incident. If the dog is other wise solid just work to a different command and let the collar pull as an out go. He will get the point.