Adam, can you tell us a little more about the dog, like the Breed/age/sex/goals? One thing I know, when just learning something, it is confusing & difficult for the animal if two people are trying to train. Each of you do things & sound quite different to a dog (what is subtle to us is glaring to them). So I think thebest thing is for you guys to determine which of you will be the trainer. Down the line when the dog is rock solid, the other person can step in & mirror the techniques with the dog.

I also have to say I really disagree with those who give a hand signal with a verbal command. This double command becomes second nature & is a hard habit to break for us humans. Why do something that you know is going to result in lost points at trial?

Ms. Tuck,

I think Mr. Dorn could improve his training or training demonstration results if he put the treats away. Too many or too readily given treats can cause the problem of the dog's 'anticipation performing' to get a treat.

I am interested in you expanding your view of verbal and hand signals. I use a verbal cue sometimes, and I use a hand gesture cue sometimes, and some times I marry the two depending on the circumstance. I can tell you that when I marry the two there is little confusion in my little pack. If you are limiting your focus on 'trials and evaluation' I take your point.

Keep in mind that many of the people who post here are seeking ways to have well mannered/trained dogs that will never see any kind of formal testing and rating. Those people can use the idea that posturing can greatly help in training, and posturing considers and includes body language, hand gestures, and verbal command structure, I think.

Two cents.

Mike A.

Please call me Sue, "Ms Tuck" is..well I don't know, but just call me Sue. I agree with what you said about treats. You are right, I am talking about training with an eye towards competition, but also when I tell my dog sitz or platz it is a command, not a request. He must do it every time, & not pay extra attention to it because "wow she must be serious this time, she did the hand thing too". To me, the hand signal is worthless unless you want a dog that will respond to either a hand signal or a verbal cue, which is fine. I'm hoping the gentleman will expound on my question posed earlier requesting info about the dog & his goals.

Hand signals and verbal signals are easily interchangeable and faded out if trained correctly. Just because you trained both doesn't mean you have to use them both. In fact, you should never use them both at the same time anyway...thats just bad dog handling. 1 cue for 1 behavior. The hand signal is not for emphasis of the verbal cue.
In training a dog a new behavior, using a hand signal can make training easier for the dog because it is a stepping stone between a lure and a verbal cue. You can fade it easily. Why make training more of a guessing game for your dog? If it works, use it. If you find it is simpler to not use one, then don't.
I find that pet owners find hand signals easy to use and makes training their pet easier too, though it is difficult for pet owners to understand why/how to add a new cue and fade the old.


Mr. Dorn,
About training with treats and food, I'd only use it for teaching the behavior for motivation and then fade it once the dog becomes reliable.
I don't encourage people to constantly reward with food forever- training in drive is really the better way to go.
Keep your dog on a leash and don't allow her to roll around doing tricks when it is training time. If she manages to, by all means don't reward her- use a verbal correction. Once she knows the command, treats are used sparingly, but mostly reward with verbal praise or a toy or game she enjoys.
Hope this helps!

SARAH, how's your dog doing anyway?

I guess we will agree to disagree. I see it as making things more complicated than needed, not a "steppuing stone". Oh well, you knowwhat they say, the only thing two dog trainers agree on is what the third is doing wrong!

Alison, we are having SUCCESS!

Thanks to the great responses here I've been working on a solid release command and it's doing what the "stay" command didn't...keep my dog where I want him to be. Granted, we are talking about very short stays right now but he is getting what I want him to do.

I've also found that toys now motivate him more than food and when he's in that toy crazy drive mode he really performs so well.

It's just so cool and so satisfying to see all the things I read about here and watch on Ed's DVDs actually working in my home with my dog.

Thanks for asking, Alison

Ms. Voore,

Some thoughts on your comment: "you should never use them both at the same time anyway...thats just bad dog handling. 1 cue for 1 behavior. The hand signal is not for emphasis of the verbal cue."

"bad dog handling" Probably.

I suppose it has to do with how the handler handles handling his/her dog(s). For me using and even mixing verbal and hand signal cues seems a natural way to command and communicate with my dog(s) in various circumstances. I don't consider myself a bad dog handler for mixing verbal and hand signal commands but then I judge my efforts by the behavior of my dogs, and the kind feedback of casual observers.

I sometimes think emphasis on form can displace substance but then again I don't copmpete or seek evaluation of my efforts. I just want three trustworthy GSDs who will react to me and my commands promptly.

I understand your comments but I think they are, perhaps, geared to a more disciplined and challenging approach to dog handling than the average owner is likely to engage in.

Two cents.

Mike A.

True, Mike. I tend to be a calculated, perfectionist, disciplined person etc... I love the analytical, learning theory, psychological area of training. I agree that a pet owner who just wants their dog to be a good dog can use whatever method works for them and their dog. I love the challenge of the fine tuning.