Carol Boche wrote 01/25/2007 09:03 AM Re: Cadaver dog and tracking [Re: Molly Graf ] #126182 - 01/25/2007 09:03 AM
Carol Boche Webboard User Reg: 10-30-2005 Posts: 4531 Loc: South Dakota, USA Offline	Quote: Molly Graf dogs can be re-trained and his experience doing narcotics detection, will help him in the re-training for cadaver detection, molly This was my train of thought. The dog will be trained passive since he has an aggressive scratch on narcs. Thanks Molly I guess I should add that the county I am in had a narcs dog before and people tried to poison her. The rest of the story on the dog is a long and aggravating one. Since I live in the middle of nowhere, it would be very easy for this to happen at my place. This is why I will not have a narcs dog, although we do need one in my opinion. I do not want anything like that to happen and they would probably kill all of my dogs just to make sure they got the right one. Until The Tale of the Lioness is told, the Story will Always Glorfy the Hunter
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John Haudenshield wrote 01/25/2007 11:13 AM Re: Cadaver dog and tracking [Re: Carol Boche ] #126201 - 01/25/2007 11:13 AM
John Haudenshield Webboard User Reg: 07-12-2001 Posts: 447 Loc: Virginia Offline	Quote: carol boche I guess my question would be, What if you take a narcs dog and train him on HRD because you are not going to be working the narcs part of it..ever, with this dog? This is my situation: The dog needs a place to go, has enough drive and is young enough to "teach" something new. Is it feasible to do this? Yes, you can absolutely do this as Molly said. Re-Training is very do-able. Carol, I did not mean to sound like I was singling you (or anyone else) out, I wasn't. What I stated in my post is simply my opinion, based on my experience and beliefs John Haudenshield The School for Dogs
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Howard Knauf wrote 01/25/2007 11:28 AM Re: Cadaver dog and tracking [Re: John Haudenshield ] #126204 - 01/25/2007 11:28 AM
Howard Knauf Webboard User Reg: 09-24-2003 Posts: 1555 Loc: Melbourne, Florida Offline	If you are going to retrain or deprogramme the narc dog then detailed records need to be kept. Also, the dog should be proofed on a regular basis to ensure the previous drug training does not creep back in. Other than that, John pretty much covered it. Howard http://www.spacecoasttactical.com
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Carol Boche wrote 01/25/2007 11:42 AM Re: Cadaver dog and tracking [Re: Howard Knauf ] #126206 - 01/25/2007 11:42 AM
Carol Boche Webboard User Reg: 10-30-2005 Posts: 4531 Loc: South Dakota, USA Offline	I keep detailed records on all of the dogs that I work with. I also keep records of the dogs that come to me for training. Of course the handler gets copies, but I truly believe in detailed records. I have OCD when it comes to this, even the hunting dogs have training logs....ha ha I did not think I was being singled out at all, I just was thinking "uh-oh, wrong train of thought" for a moment. I appreciate everyones input and I strive to do things the correct way in order to be able to offer reliable resources. Thanks guys Until The Tale of the Lioness is told, the Story will Always Glorfy the Hunter
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Jennifer Ruzsa wrote 01/25/2007 12:50 PM Re: Cadaver dog and tracking [Re: Molly Graf ] #126222 - 01/25/2007 12:50 PM
Jennifer Ruzsa Webboard User Reg: 03-21-2006 Posts: 331 Loc: Offline	Personally I'd be careful training in tracking (sport or SAR-style) and cadaver. Sure, it can be done, but in the stress of a situation? You want to know that when the dog indicates on someone, they're live. Or not. Whichever the case may be. It's just best to know. A lot of time could be wasted (during which people die in a disaster situation) if time is spent on what ends up being a cadaver find when the handler thought it was a live find. I think in an ideal situation, the live finds cover a disaster area first, and then only once all possiblity of life has been exhausted would a cadaver dog come into the picture. Again, JMO. Same thing with explosives. I believe an explosives detection dog should be trained ONLY for explosives. Not cadaver, not narcotics, not anything but explosives. You have to know that when he indicates, he's indicating on explosives. No room for error there, IMO. If you're just playing around with him for fun, it probably matters less than if actual lives are at stake, of course.
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Molly Graf wrote 01/25/2007 12:57 PM Re: Cadaver dog and tracking [Re: Jennifer Ruzsa ] #126224 - 01/25/2007 12:57 PM
Molly Graf Webboard User Reg: 06-11-2004 Posts: 301 Loc: PA, USA Offline	Quote: Personally I'd be careful training in tracking (sport or SAR-style) and cadaver. Sure, it can be done, but in the stress of a situation? You want to know that when the dog indicates on someone, they're live. Schh tracking is not live-find. So I don't think there is a problem cross-training sport-style tracking, and detection work of any kind. Two totally different methods of training, ways of tracking/trailing, and indications of different scents. I have done narcotics detection/Schh tracking with one dog successfully, and cadaver detection/Schh tracking with another one successfully - they switch back and forth without any problem at all. The only thing I have problems with is my narc dog who has an aggressive indication, scratching at the article when she finds it. No biggie. molly
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Jennifer Ruzsa wrote 01/25/2007 01:02 PM Re: Cadaver dog and tracking [Re: Molly Graf ] #126228 - 01/25/2007 01:02 PM
Jennifer Ruzsa Webboard User Reg: 03-21-2006 Posts: 331 Loc: Offline	Quote: molly graf  Quote: Personally I'd be careful training in tracking (sport or SAR-style) and cadaver. Sure, it can be done, but in the stress of a situation? You want to know that when the dog indicates on someone, they're live. Schh tracking is not live-find. So I don't think there is a problem cross-training sport-style tracking, and detection work of any kind. Two totally different methods of training, ways of tracking/trailing, and indications of different scents. I have done narcotics detection/Schh tracking with one dog successfully, and cadaver detection/Schh tracking with another one successfully - they switch back and forth without any problem at all. The only thing I have problems with is my narc dog who has an aggressive indication, scratching at the article when she finds it. No biggie. molly I apologize, I should have said "footstep tracking" as opposed to "sport-style tracking", my mistake. I would just separate anything with a live find from cadaver work. Thanks for pointing that out.
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Carol Boche wrote 01/25/2007 01:16 PM Re: Cadaver dog and tracking [Re: Jennifer Ruzsa ] #126231 - 01/25/2007 01:16 PM
Carol Boche Webboard User Reg: 10-30-2005 Posts: 4531 Loc: South Dakota, USA Offline	I am confused, I train trailing dogs so I am not the best at tracking, what is the difference between "footstep" and "sport"? I KNOW what the differences between "trailing" and "tracking" are (scent discriminant or not) so I am not looking for explanation there. I guess I always thought footstep tracking was footstep tracking....but I am new to learning Schutzhund so am I to understand there is a difference? The dog I am getting is "tracking" certified also, so I was planning on keeping up with it. I really do not see a problem with continuing the tracking so that I can learn how to do it properly and learn to train it properly. We train realistic scenarios so the "stress" of a situation does not bother me....I know my dogs, I work VERY hard with my dogs and I trust my dogs and if I didn't I would have no business deploying on a real mission. Until The Tale of the Lioness is told, the Story will Always Glorfy the Hunter
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Jennifer Ruzsa wrote 01/25/2007 01:48 PM Re: Cadaver dog and tracking [Re: Carol Boche ] #126241 - 01/25/2007 01:48 PM
Jennifer Ruzsa Webboard User Reg: 03-21-2006 Posts: 331 Loc: Offline	Quote: carol boche I am confused, I train trailing dogs so I am not the best at tracking, what is the difference between "footstep" and "sport"? I KNOW what the differences between "trailing" and "tracking" are (scent discriminant or not) so I am not looking for explanation there. I guess I always thought footstep tracking was footstep tracking....but I am new to learning Schutzhund so am I to understand there is a difference? Carol, in my post, I meant "footstep tracking" where there IS a live find at the end versus "sport tracking" where there never is a person at the end. In SchH there's never a person. But some people, in some clubs, still train footstep tracking that leads to a live find. My point was that SchH tracking, which doesn't lead to a person, shouldn't interfere with cadaver work, but any work that DOES lead to a live person (be that footstep tracking, air scenting, whatever) might. That's all. It wasn't supposed to be a very "technical" post. I just mistakingly said "sport tracking" to mean "footstep tracking" and neglected to acknowledge the important difference that there isn't a live find at the end of a sport track.
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Geneva Sieffert wrote 01/25/2007 08:53 PM Re: Cadaver dog and tracking [Re: Jennifer Ruzsa ] #126319 - 01/25/2007 08:53 PM
Geneva Sieffert Webboard User Reg: 12-18-2006 Posts: 31 Loc: Offline	Hi Everyone, Thanks for the info. The dog I have is a working Narc dog who was also trained in Cadaver before I bought him. I would like to work him in both, is there a reason not to? I 100% agree with the bomb dog training. Thanks again.
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